Lay Down JJ Here?

[EasilyFound]

Needless to say, very early in the tourney. $50 Step 2 PP Tourney

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t985)
MP3 (t990)
CO (t955)
Button (t875)
SB (t945)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t1015)
UTG+1 (t920)
UTG+2 (t1300)
MP1 (t1015)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, UTG+2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (t195) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to t275</font>, Hero folds

I did not want to raise preflop because too often I've played these PP SNGs and had two or three people call large preflop raises early in a tourney. Although, I must say, this table had been playing very tight up to this point. The majority of hands had been won preflop, and a few of those included everyone folding to the BB.

[citanul]

not that necessarilly limping was wrong, but "i didn't want to raise my good hand for value because i thought a couple of people might dumbly call" is very bad.

citanul

[curtains]

Raise here preflop and this hand is much easier to play IMO. I would go allin here, I have no respect for these guys. If the raiser had JJ beat he'd often slowplay with so many opponents behind him.

[EasilyFound]

I have much to learn it seems. My thinking was that if I raise and get two callers, let's say, and one or more overcards hit the flop, my hand is pretty much dead, although I do have position on everyone else if the button would have folded a raise. I hate playing a PP when one or more overcards on the board. But I guess I've got to get over that to be a good poker player.

BTW, what is the legit rason for limping in that spot?

[curtains]

I think just moving allin might be better than limping (I'm not advocating this play, just comparing it). You'll get called by weaker hands more often than you think. These guys don't want to fold their 77.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
If the raiser had JJ beat he'd often slowplay with so many opponents behind him.


[/ QUOTE ]

Which raiser are you talking about? And I'm not sure I follow your "slowplay" comment.

[ QUOTE ]
I think just moving allin might be better than limping (I'm not advocating this play, just comparing it).

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, I did not even consider moving all-in at this stage of the tourney.

[curtains]

What I meant was on the flop someone bet 100 and someone immediatley raised to 275. If he had a HUGE hand, he would often call, hoping to trap in the many players behind him. By just calling it seems as though he's trying to protect his hand, and thus could be somehting that isn't so strong.

One other note, for some reason I thought this was a $11 tourney, now I realize its a $55 step, I'll have a little more respect for my opponents here.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
By just calling

[/ QUOTE ]

do you mean calling or raising? By raising it seems like he is trying to protect his hand. No?

[curtains]

When he raises he is trying to protect his hand, which may not be that strong. It's a tough situation really, some guys will play big hands fast there.

I'd still just go allin and pray, I think chances of having the best hand are decent, but I could be very wrong about this.

[blingice]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J, J.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, UTG+2 calls t30, 1 fold, Hero calls t30, 2 folds, Button calls t30, 1 fold, BB checks.


[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gifHorrible, Absolutely horrible! YOU DON'T SMOOTH-CALL JJ PREFLOP WHEN THERE ARE 3 CALLERS BEHIND YOU, AND 5 PEOPLE TO ACT. You really WANTED people to win off of you, didn't you?
There's two ways to play JJ preflop: raise a ton, get 1 caller, 2 max, OR smooth-call and get money in the pot so you can fold if you don't hit anything and have potential callers if the flop gives you a good hand. The second strategy is only for with MAYBE 3 other people in the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t195) 6, 9, 3 (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets t100, UTG+2 raises to t275, Hero folds


[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gifHey! Your smooth call payed off! You have a good flop, and many people are in the hand. No overcards, no draws, no cards that people would have two pair with like 96, 93, 63 (all of them bad hands, so we can think that people won't have them), people probably don't have 99, because someone would've RAISED PREFLOP, there probably isn't someone w/ 66, because they would've RAISED PREFLOP, 33, not much chance. So you have an AWESOME chance to possibly triple up, or maybe take 500 from each person, but you fold after a raise of 1/5 your stack.
But to answer:
[ QUOTE ]
Lay Down JJ Here?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gifNO!


/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Bling.

[EasilyFound]

Guess I gotta stop seeing the boogie man everywhere. Thanks blingice for laying out your thinking.

Sad thing is that I screwed up the hand twice. Wow.

[Voltron87]

Not defining your hand makes internet play much harder than it has to be.

I don't see a fold being in order here, you have a lot of UTG2's raising hands beaten. I don't think someone is betting a set or even 2 pair like this because there are almost no draws to protect against. A9s is likely, since it is vulnerable to overcards. I push.

[Degen]

Raise PF...push on the flop...you played this horribly weak-tight

Degen

[Degen]

you are correct that if an overcard hits and others display agression, you should muck it...though if you raise PF and go heads up you can often put in a 1/2 pot size bet on the flop and they'll let it go...though in this particular case you got about the best flop you could ask for.

timid money is dead money in these tourneys man.

Degen

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
timid money is dead money in these tourneys man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. I rarely get knocked out early on these things, but I often find myself short-stacked during later rounds. Will take this advice to heart.

[Degen]

Short-stacked how so? I ususally am to a point...in the 33's i get down to around 600-700 often when its 50/100 blinds...because of tight play...thats good

i wasn't saying to play looser...i was saying to play more agressive...its a fundamental point that peoople often confuse.


Loose is the oppositive of tight
Passive is the opposite of agressive.

These are two COMPLETELY separate criteria for judging this hand.


PF you played this PASSIVE (and tight if you had been folding a number of other hands).

OTF u played this TIGHT.


I personally would have pushed this flop, though I suppose one could make a case for why you should fold, and i was kind of hoping you would do that, but it appears you have agreed with us that you should have played it. This point could be debated.

THOUGH WHAT COULD NOT BE DEBATED is what you should have done on the flop IF you decided to play it. YOU MUST RAISE!!! If you just call you are being PASSIVE...the opposite of AGRESSIVE.

That is what I meant by 'timid money'...not the fact that you folded on the flop. I said that because I suspect that if you did decide to play this flop, you would have simply called the raise, not pushed. The only move is to push, or fold.


Degen

[EasilyFound]

I understand the difference between loose/tight and passive/aggressive. The first refers to the number of hands you play, and the second refers to how you play the hands that you are in.

My thinking at the time was that the raiser had hit a set. There obviously were no draws out there. Unlike what was said in one of the other replies, I wouldn't have been surprised to have seen someone limp at that stage of the tourney with a small pp (33, 66, 99), hoping to hit a set on the flop. So that is what I thought. Whether that's the case for folding or not, that was my thought process OTF. Although, after reading your reply and thinking about it more carefully (which I did not do then), I agree that the raise probably meant that the raiser was playing something like A-9. Limping w/a baby Ace is what many people would have done in that spot.

BTW, I agree that calling OTF is out of the question. I wouldn't have been calling. My thinking at the time was either to raise or fold. Not just call.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
Short-stacked how so? I ususally am to a point...in the 33's i get down to around 600-700 often when its 50/100 blinds...because of tight play...thats good


[/ QUOTE ]

In the tourney involving this hand, when the blinds hit 50/100, my chip count was 790 w/8 players left. I had second lowest stack. Another player had 655. After that it was: 955, 985, 1030, 1120, 1910, and 2555.

[Degen]

thats plenty of chips to win...i wouldn't focus on being the 'short-stack' this early...all this means is that you need to start stealing.

Degen

[EasilyFound]

I thought 8-handed was a little early for blind stealing. How many people have to be behind you before you can try to "steal" the blinds? This will be helpful also for recognizing when others are trying to steal. Or do you mean stealing pots?

[Degen]

I mean blind stealing. Doesn't matter how many players there are, matters how big the blinds are. I can't tell you how many times I've been 8 or 9 handed and found myself at an ULTRA tight table and moved my 700-900 chips up to 1500-2000+ from relentlessly attacking the blinds.

If its 8 or more handed and the blinds hit 50/100 or 100/200 then BY DEFINITION everybody is playing very tight, this is the perfect time to start moving in when its been folded to you in MP or LP.

Degen

[EasilyFound]

thanks again.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
If its 8 or more handed and the blinds hit 50/100 or 100/200 then BY DEFINITION everybody is playing very tight, this is the perfect time to start moving in when its been folded to you in MP or LP.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have two questions. When you have the oppty. to steal, you push in your whole stack at that point? And, if so, do you do it regardless of what kind of hand you have or do you still need something? You have J5, you still push? Or do you need something reasonable?

[EasilyFound]

I'm going to put this into another thread.

[TomHimself]

i think everyone has it right with the push on the flop, and raise preflop. but just curious do you remember the winner and what did he win with or was it a uncalled bet? sorry if i missed it in one of the posts.