Why Can't I Beat 2/5 Live? A New Players Log.

[derick]

Hello Again My 2+2 Mentors!

I need help examining what I should do to get better.

Thanks for all your help so far. I probably would have had less than 1% chance getting this far if it wasn't for you guys and the books.

Background: I've been playing seriously since August 2004. So far I've played 15,000 hands on poker tracker and only in the last 5,000 has my bb/100 been positive. But I'm starting to get better thanks to your help so over the last 5,000 hands my average has been 2.0bb/100hands. My VP$IP is 18%. My Preflop Raise is 9%. My aggression factor is 3.4 postflop.

I don't have a mentor except you guys so I'm trying to learn by reading books and using this forum.

I've had to read SSH *seven* times and I've read HEPFAP *four* times and I still need to read them a lot more times! Is this normal for you guys? I'm not an idiot but (my degree is in Computer Science) but I find this stuff very tough.

I've also read about 15 other books. (TOP, Caro's Book of Poker Tells, Middle Limit Hold'em, Poker Essays I, II, III, SS, ITH, WLLH, HoH, Ciafone's No Limit and Pot Limit. I've read some bad books too like... Championship No Limit and Pot Limt Hold'em, Killer Poker, Killer Poker Online, Ken Warren's Big Book of Poker and Phil Helmuth's Play Poker Like the Pro's (and some even worse books that I won't mention). I picked up Tournament Poker for Advanced Players and Improve Your Poker that I plan to read between re readings of SSH and HEPFAP.

I find I love playing live much more than online.

I'm a IT guy so I think it's good to not be jacked in while I'm off work.

My records show that I'm winning 2.0 BB/100 on-line but losing about -1 BB/100 Live.

Reasons Why?

Rake: The rake in the 2/5 game at the Brantford Casino is 10% of the pot up to a Maximum of $5, Usually pots are about $40 so they rake of $4/hand. This is $400/100 hands or 80BB/100. If you win 10% of hands dealt then your rake is 8BB/100. If you win just 6% of hands your rake will be still be 4.8BB/100. If you tip $1/hand when you win 6% of hands you are playing $6/100 = 1.2BB/100.

So Rake 4.8 + Tip 1.2 == 6 BB/100 that you need to beat live VS about 3.5 BB/100 online.


Suggestions!!

Help! I love live poker but the rake seems to make it unwinable for me at 2/5.

It would take the equivalent of beating an online game of more than 3.5 bb/100 just to make 1bb/100.

[deacsoft]

A $5 rake is not the easiest thing in the world to beat. Especially, when combined with the inevitable suckouts and bad beats that come with playing low limit games.

I too love playing live, but I also play for a living. So, it's hard to not spend most of my time multi-tabling on-line. It's simply just too profitable. I try to play some live poker a couple times a week. I don't really worry too much about my win rate there. I come out a winner about 8 out of 10 times due to the $4 (max)rake and horrible players. I try to think of it as a sort of vacation. As time away from the "job". That mindset helps. It sounds like we're in different situations though.

[afk]

The rake is brutal in that game, I play it more for fun than anything else. But it's possible that the extra horrible players could make the effect of the rake not as bad. Also, I doubt that you have enough table time to determine whether or not you can actually beat the 2/5 game. I have a hard time believing it's not beatable even with that rake.

[maryfield48]

Slightly OT, but what HE limits do they habitually spread at Brantford?

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
Slightly OT, but what HE limits do they habitually spread at Brantford?

[/ QUOTE ]

2/5, 5/10, 10/20 and 20/40 are pretty much always running from what I know. I spoke to the poker room manager last time I was there briefly and she told me occasionally they will spread 15/30 and 30/60 when the demand is there and the odd 50/100 game (though that's apparently much less frequent than it used to be). Also they'll be adding morning tournaments in the not so distant future and they're trying to get NL tables, but there's a lot of red tape to go through as they're a charity casino and the max bet is $100. This is all stuff that the room manager (I think), Hazel, was telling me - nice lady!

[smoore]

You're an IT guy, barring having 4 or 5 rugrats, you can afford 5/10. Don't expect the players to be any better than 2/4 online. The rake is horrible in that 2/5 game.

[derick]

Sounds like I should switch to playing 5/10 rather than trying to learn how to beat the 2/5 game first.


I played my first 5/10 this weekend. I hope this doesn't sound like another, "I can't beat low limits so I should move up" type of post ... does it?

I lost about -1bb/hour. The players were slightly better than the 2/5 players. I know my sample size is really small.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
I know my sample size is really small.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you got a feeling for the game. If you feel that you can beat the 5/10 game you should plug away at it (given proper BR).

[TripleH68]

I can't say that I know the texture of your live games, but...

If a lot of players are limping in preflop you should be looking for multi-way hands. Try to build and win big pots, then the rake will have less effect.

[derick]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't say that I know the texture of your live games, but...

If a lot of players are limping in preflop you should be looking for multi-way hands. Try to build and win big pots, then the rake will have less effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Losts of players are even *cold calling* preflop in both the 2/5 and 5/10 games!

[somapopper]

[ QUOTE ]
My VP$IP is 18%. My Preflop Raise is 9%. My aggression factor is 3.4 postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just thought I'd respond to this... seems like your agression might be a little high. Are you taking a free card when you need one? Checking the river when you'll only be called by hands that beat yours? Just calling w/ drawing hands when it's the proper situation to do so?

I'm curious if other folks think an AF over 3 is simply too much?

[derick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My VP$IP is 18%. My Preflop Raise is 9%. My aggression factor is 3.4 postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just thought I'd respond to this... seems like your agression might be a little high. Are you taking a free card when you need one? Checking the river when you'll only be called by hands that beat yours? Just calling w/ drawing hands when it's the proper situation to do so?

I'm curious if other folks think an AF over 3 is simply too much?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for pointing this out.

I'm still learning about what level of aggression is best. The stats are for Party 0.50/1.00

I went from having a very low post flop aggression to a very high aggression. Since I've become more aggessive I've been winning but I fear I may have been too aggressive.

Yes the 3.4 aggression does get me in trouble. I find I sometimes raise to isolate in big pots with second best hand and it turns out I have the worst hand. I bet my flush draws. I bet my straight draws. I value bet when I think I have the best hand.

You're right, sometimes I realize I should have taken a free card, or gone for overcalls or just check the river with a hand that will only be called by a hand that beats mine.

When should I just call with my straight or flush draws. I always seem to be raising them. The other thing I have to start doing more is check raising.

But....

Overall going from a passive player post flop to a very aggressive player has turned me from loseing 1bb/100 online to wining 2bb/100.

So now I'm reworking my game this month. I plan to take a month off of playing and spend the time I would normally play to read SSH and rework my game. I still don't get SSH after 7 reads and 7 months.

Derick

PS What post flop aggression numbers do you guys have? (please also state your sample sizes mine is 3.4 in 15,000 hands).

What is considered a "Good" number? I'm guessing above 2.5 is good, below 1.5 is terrible.

[Paul2432]

I not familar with the 2/5 game. Is it a $2 bet preflop and on the flop and then a $5 bet on the turn and river?

If so, do not underestimate the effect of the change in structure compared to the standard 2:1 Big Bet:Small Bet structure. In the 2/5 structure you would generally play a little looser during the first two rounds because of the possibility of collecting larger than normal bets on the later rounds. Because most players in general play too loose, this structure has the effect of making the play of these players less of a mistake. Many new "serious players" play too tight which can be a mistake in this structure.

If you do make it to the turn, generally be more inclined to fold with a weak hand (because of the worse pot odds) and bet aggressively with a strong hand. In this structure playing properly on the turn and river is much more important because of the relatively larger bet sizes.

You might want to post in the general texas hold'em forum or the poker theory forum for more discussion.

Paul

[tek]

I believe they are referring to NL with a $2 SB and a $5 BB.

[derick]

[ QUOTE ]
I not familar with the 2/5 game. Is it a $2 bet preflop and on the flop and then a $5 bet on the turn and river?



Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes the blinds are $1 and $2, the preflop and flop bets are $2 max 3 raises. The river and turn are $5 maximum 3 raises unless it is heads up in which case it is an unlimited number of $5 raises.

Derick

[derick]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe they are referring to NL with a $2 SB and a $5 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
No it's limit as described in my post above this one.

[Paul2432]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I not familar with the 2/5 game. Is it a $2 bet preflop and on the flop and then a $5 bet on the turn and river?



Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes the blinds are $1 and $2, the preflop and flop bets are $2 max 3 raises. The river and turn are $5 maximum 3 raises unless it is heads up in which case it is an unlimited number of $5 raises.

Derick

[/ QUOTE ]

So its spread limit? When you say "$5 maximum" do you mean bets of $1-5 are legal bets? Or is the bet $5 and nothing else.

If the game is spread limit, you need to make some additional adjustments from the standard limit hold'em advice you have read in the books.

Paul

[derick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I not familar with the 2/5 game. Is it a $2 bet preflop and on the flop and then a $5 bet on the turn and river?



Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes the blinds are $1 and $2, the preflop and flop bets are $2 max 3 raises. The river and turn are $5 maximum 3 raises unless it is heads up in which case it is an unlimited number of $5 raises.

Derick

[/ QUOTE ]

So its spread limit? When you say "$5 maximum" do you mean bets of $1-5 are legal bets? Or is the bet $5 and nothing else.

If the game is spread limit, you need to make some additional adjustments from the standard limit hold'em advice you have read in the books.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not spread limit.


The blinds are $1 and $2, the preflop and flop bets are $2, there are a maximum of 3 raises of $2. The river and turn bets are $5, there are a maximum of 3 raises of $5, unless it is heads up in which case it is an unlimited number of $5 raises.

[afk]

Just think of it as a straight up 2/4 limit game. Except replace the 4 with a 5.

[Paul2432]

[ QUOTE ]
Just think of it as a straight up 2/4 limit game. Except replace the 4 with a 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotcha. See my first post in this thread then on adjusting to the larger big bet.

Paul