T9s in MP. I don't think I played this correctly.

[Sponger15SB]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

[jba]

I probably check/call the turn here, I'm not sure what you can accomplish by betting out here, and you very well may get a free card.

[davelin]

Check/call turn IMO.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
I probably check/call the turn here, I'm not sure what you can accomplish by betting out here, and you very well may get a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so assume it is checked around, and then checked to me on the river.

Do I bet?


oh yeah..... flop raise is mandatory right?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I probably check/call the turn here, I'm not sure what you can accomplish by betting out here, and you very well may get a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so assume it is checked around, and then checked to me on the river.

Do I bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

UI or when you hit a pair like this? I'd bet.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I probably check/call the turn here, I'm not sure what you can accomplish by betting out here, and you very well may get a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so assume it is checked around, and then checked to me on the river.

Do I bet?


oh yeah..... flop raise is mandatory right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would bet the river if checked to after cheecking behind the turn.

I also like your flop raise. get those JT and KT and A9 hands out.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok so assume it is checked around, and then checked to me on the river.
Do I bet?


[/ QUOTE ]

assuming it's it's an 8,9,T, or heart, absolutely. anything else is a check/fold.


[ QUOTE ]
oh yeah..... flop raise is mandatory right?

[/ QUOTE ]

word, you cashed some serious sklansky bucks on that raise.

edit: the other thing that flop raise bought you is the possibility of the free river that you should have tried tried to take

[Entity]

I actually like the whole thing.

Rob

[KaiShin]

Seems to me if you're pumping your flush draw on the flop, shouldn't you continue to pump on the turn when an apparent blank falls? I'd be more likely to bet this turn than to attempt to check it through.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me if you're pumping your flush draw on the flop, shouldn't you continue to pump on the turn when an apparent blank falls? I'd be more likely to bet this turn than to attempt to check it through.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you didn't pick up extra outs with a gutshot on the turn, checking the turn would be better.

[SCfuji]

flop raise is fine
picked up a gut straight draw so i like the turn bet
with this river, i bet it everytime. villains will usually table crap like 44, 67, etc.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me if you're pumping your flush draw on the flop, shouldn't you continue to pump on the turn when an apparent blank falls? I'd be more likely to bet this turn than to attempt to check it through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your flush-draw equity goes down considerably from the flop to the turn. While it's frequently +EV to pump the flush draw on the flop, it's not usually to do it on the turn.

The turn actually gave Hero 3 additional outs. I guess Entity is advocating a bet because of Hero's equity (no one may have a J so spiking a pair on the river may have some equity as well). I think it's close but I'm leaning towards check/call still.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually like the whole thing.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain the turn bet here, cause I don't get it. (you're about 5 for 5 disagreeing with me, then convincing me, so I'm ready)

[elbuddha]

I don't see anything wrong with the turn bet. Getting 3 callers would have been neutral, getting fewer might make spiking our 9 or T good, and getting all four was ideal for our gutshot+flush draws.

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
If you didn't pick up extra outs with a gutshot on the turn, checking the turn would be better.

[/ QUOTE ]
Gotcha. Aggression bites me in the ass again.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I actually like the whole thing.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain the turn bet here, cause I don't get it. (you're about 5 for 5 disagreeing with me, then convincing me, so I'm ready)

[/ QUOTE ]

The the gutshot, Entity is saying that our equity is high enough to make this bet.

[shadow29]

I think your flop raise sucks.

Why are you making the field face 2 cold with a flush draw?

Here's an excerpt from my article due in the April mag:

[ QUOTE ]
You have Ah 5h UTG and you limp in a loose, but passive $.5/$1 game.
Three players limp behind you, the SB completes and the BB checks,
leaving 6 SBs and 6 players. The flop comes Kh 2s 8h. The SB checks
and the BB bets. What do you do?


Many micro limit players instinctively raise here, as they vaguely
remember something about a pot equity edge that flush draws have.
While this edge is real, raising here is not correct. Raising might
potentially knock out the three limpers behind you, as well as the SB,
since this flop is rather ragged and a raise forces four remaining
players to call two cold, potentially leaving you heads up. Thus, you
would no longer have a pot equity edge, but a pot equity deficit.
Moreover, raising could leave you open to an expensive 3-bet if the
villain has a ragged two pair or a set. Paying 1.5 BBs to see the
turn heads up is not a favorable situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your flop raise sucks.

Why are you making the field face 2 cold with a flush draw?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's a flush draw with two overs which is considerably better than just a pure flush draw or one with just one over? Hero could be cleaning up some pair outs with a raise here.

[Sponger15SB]

Those are completely different hands.

Also I just want to say how psyched I am to have posted a hand that sparked good discussion regardless of whether or not I played the hand correctly! Go me!

[SCfuji]

i dont see too many 3-bets at these loose PASSIVE games unless its another one of you 2+2 bums that invade my fishy tables. find your own fish bastards!! (unless you are following me around /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[KaiShin]

I think I would have to disagree with your example entirely. Loose passive players would have no problem calling 2 cold on the flop. If the table is tight then I could see the argument for the call with so many limpers yet to act. But given the general makeup of your average micro table, raising here is likely to win you more money on average. Your example seems to be of the worst-case sort, without taking into account the times when one or more limpers call two cold on the flop, or the implied odds of hitting our flush, which if we got 3-bet on the flop, would certainly be significant.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
Those are completely different hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. Yeah I realise that now. /images/graemlins/cool.gif But I wanted to have the thought process behind facing the field ccing 2.

I still think the flop raise sucks. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

With flush draws I want as many opponents in as possible. I don't think that we're really cleaning up T or 9 outs here. Nor do I think that a 9 or T is going to win it. I'm playing this hand for its flush outs, not its pair outs. Thus, I want the entire field calling one bet. Even players at .5/1 know how to fold when its two to them cold.

Sponger- why are you playing .5/1?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Those are completely different hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. Yeah I realise that now. /images/graemlins/cool.gif But I wanted to have the thought process behind facing the field ccing 2.

I still think the flop raise sucks. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

With flush draws I want as many opponents in as possible. I don't think that we're really cleaning up T or 9 outs here. Nor do I think that a 9 or T is going to win it. I'm playing this hand for its flush outs, not its pair outs. Thus, I want the entire field calling one bet. Even players at .5/1 know how to fold when its two to them cold.

Sponger- why are you playing .5/1?

[/ QUOTE ]

Shadow, you may be right, maybe it's more EV to keep more players in the pot for your flush draw than raising to increase your chance of hitting a pair to win. I'm sure someone could do this analysis

But we're not just cleaning 9 or T outs here, in this example Hero may have won this hand by getting someone to fold a J on the flop.

[tiltaholic]

hi
nice hand.
my main comment seems to be one that people haven't really discussed -- do we really think this river value bet is a good one? i realize it only needs to be successful a very small number of times, but still...will it?
-t

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
But we're not just cleaning 9 or T outs here, in this example Hero may have won this hand by getting someone to fold a J on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Same thing, in my mind. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

We need shill to come in and do the math thing.

I'm fairly certain that its more EV to get everyone to stick around for the flush, though.

[DMBFan23]

the math on that is hard, because we need to know who's going to pay off when we hit, but would have folded to two cold on the flop.

I'll trust Ed that as the pot gets larger, knocking players out becomes better if you have overcard outs. is this pot big enough? I won't get into that argument, no one can agree on how big is big enough and how much cleaning up pair outs matters.

[elbuddha]

[ QUOTE ]
do we really think this river value bet is a good one? i realize it only needs to be successful a very small number of times, but still...will it?

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG+2 will pay us off with his pair of 7s just to see what we raised him on the flop with. There's no evidence to suggest someone paired the J, or that the 9 helped anyone but us. So yeah, I think so.

[rabman]

Preflop good. Flop good. Turn I would probably try for the the free card and check/call. I like the river bet after showing aggression on the turn. Had you checked the turn the play may have been to check/call again on the river. I have trouble playing aggressively with so many players in the hand.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

I think your flop raise sucks.

Why are you making the field face 2 cold with a flush draw?

Here's an excerpt from my article due in the April mag:

[/ QUOTE ]

The two hands aren't even close. Overs + flush draw is a lot stronger on this board, the pot is 8SB, and I'd like to do what I can to increase the possibility of winning it with a pair of 9's or Ten's. Since my raise is likely neutral EV against one player, getting it HU isn't bad -- if people call along, well, the more the merrier.

Rob

[shadow29]

Read my next couple responses.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Read my next couple responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your statements are contradictory. You can't say that someone won't call two cold but that your raise won't help you win with a pair of Tens or a pair of 9's. This argument would hold true if the board were already Q-high, but it isn't.

Either they call multiple bets off and you get value, woo, or they don't call multiple bets, and you increase your chances by a fair margin with an already good draw and a reasonable-sized pot.

Rob

[shadow29]

To quote Walt Whitman, "Very well then, I contradict myself."

heh.

I sort of got lost in all my responses.

Anyway, what I wanted to say was that it is my opinion that calling to encourage a larger pot (and therefore playing your flush draw) has more EV than raising.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
calling to encourage a larger pot (and therefore playing your flush draw) has more EV than raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't seen any proof of that.

How many people do we expect will call a bet? How many people will call a raise (the answer is more than one)?

Rob

[shadow29]

Dammit. I had this entire thing written and then I was like 4 = 2*2.

Edit: Losing sucks.

[Sponger15SB]

The two callers on the river had A7 and 98

The A7 guy was the one who bet the flop.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
The two callers on the river had A7 and 98

The A7 guy was the one who bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice hand. Feels good to drag a 16BB pot with a pair of 9's, doesn't it?

Rob

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The two callers on the river had A7 and 98

The A7 guy was the one who bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice hand. Feels good to drag a 16BB pot with a pair of 9's, doesn't it?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Yesterday I won a 17BB pot with AK- ace high against another guys AQ.

Stuff like that is awsome.

Now, if I could only win more 17BB pots when my sets hold up /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[gasoltub]

[ QUOTE ]
word, you cashed some serious sklansky bucks on that raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, now someone please tell me what "Sklansky bucks" are!
Is it some imaginary credits you "get" when doing something Sklansky recommends?