Can you think up a situation...

[fimbulwinter]

in which you're "behind" on the turn (have a worse made hand) but are a favorite to win the hand (in holdem)?

I can only come up with one such general setup, but i'm sure there must be more...

fim

my answer in white below:

<font color="white"> board contains a pair, he holds a low pair and you hold two overs and an OESFD.

Like board: 3s 3d Jh Th
You: Qh Kh
Him: 2s 2d </font>

[BluffTHIS!]

How do you figure yourself a favorite here? You have two overcards and an open-ended straight flush draw for the following outs:
-3 Ks and 3Qs =6
-7 flush outs (not the 2h or 3h which fill him)
-6 straight outs (the Ah and 9h already counted as flush outs);

for a total of 19 outs. Since there are 44 unseen cards, this means you have less than 1/2 the remaining deck with only one card to come and are not in fact a favorite in this situation.

[mostsmooth]

you didnt count the Jacks and Tens

[damaniac]

A J or T counterfeits villain's hand.

[fimbulwinter]

can you ifx this one somehow?

6s 5h 4h 3h

him Td 2d
you 6h 6c

fim

[fimbulwinter]

slightly better than previous

3h 3d Jh Th

Qc Kh
2h 2s

is it possible to have more than 25 outs?

fim

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
in which you're "behind" on the turn (have a worse made hand) but are a favorite to win the hand (in holdem)?


[/ QUOTE ]

Add more players and you can add more hands that, collectively, you are a favorite against. It isn't that common, however. Usually part of being the 'favorite' is the factor of semibluffing and the possibility of making someone fold. But that's a little different.

Like you have top set, 4 people have a flush on the turn. This happened to me long ago. It sparked 2 or 3 in depth threads looking into jamming draws on the turn.

Openended str8flush draws are another when you have 3+ players in. Read of opponents hands depending.

b

[PairTheBoard]

Nicely done. If there's something better I'd like to see it.

PairTheBoard

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
A J or T counterfeits villain's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I feel dumb, but I don't get it. Unless the villain's low pair is specifically a pair of twos how does a J or 10 counterfit his hand? Say he has a pair of fives, for example. A jack gives him Jacks and Fives with a ten kicker and our hero has jacks and threes with a King kicker. Villain wins right?

Or am I missing something obvious?

[Acestarfighter]

Highlight the white writing and it shows he is holding a pair of 2s.

[Josh W]

There are a number of situations where you are behind on the turn, but guaranteed at least a split pot by the river.

For example, you could have 22, him 23, board JJTT on the turn. If a 2 comes, you win. Anything else, you chop.

Another example is if you have 65s, he has 72o, and the board is 3344. Again, you are guaranteed at least a chop, but if a 2, 5, 6, 7 comes, you win (plus you could have a flush draw, if you'd like).

Josh

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
in which you're "behind" on the turn (have a worse made hand) but are a favorite to win the hand (in holdem)?

I can only come up with one such general setup, but i'm sure there must be more...

fim

my answer in white below:

board contains a pair, he holds a low pair and you hold two overs and an OESFD.

Like board: 3s 3d Jh Th
You: Qh Kh
Him: 2s 2d

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand how you are behind on the turn here. you are ahead. you have 2 pair king high, and he has 2 pair with a 2 high. unless a 2 comes he is playing the board. so really he only has 2 outs for the win and 4 outs to the ace for a chop

[Snoogins47]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in which you're "behind" on the turn (have a worse made hand) but are a favorite to win the hand (in holdem)?

I can only come up with one such general setup, but i'm sure there must be more...

fim

my answer in white below:

board contains a pair, he holds a low pair and you hold two overs and an OESFD.

Like board: 3s 3d Jh Th
You: Qh Kh
Him: 2s 2d

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand how you are behind on the turn here. you are ahead. you have 2 pair king high, and he has 2 pair with a 2 high. unless a 2 comes he is playing the board. so really he only has 2 outs for the win and 4 outs to the ace for a chop

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a pair of 3s, king high. He has 3s and 2s. You no havey the two pairy.

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A J or T counterfeits villain's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I feel dumb, but I don't get it. Unless the villain's low pair is specifically a pair of twos how does a J or 10 counterfit his hand?

...

Or am I missing something obvious?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, villains low pair IS specifically a 2.

[a500lbgorilla]

Does it have to be heads up?

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in which you're "behind" on the turn (have a worse made hand) but are a favorite to win the hand (in holdem)?

I can only come up with one such general setup, but i'm sure there must be more...

fim

my answer in white below:

board contains a pair, he holds a low pair and you hold two overs and an OESFD.

Like board: 3s 3d Jh Th
You: Qh Kh
Him: 2s 2d

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand how you are behind on the turn here. you are ahead. you have 2 pair king high, and he has 2 pair with a 2 high. unless a 2 comes he is playing the board. so really he only has 2 outs for the win and 4 outs to the ace for a chop

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a pair of 3s, king high. He has 3s and 2s. You no havey the two pairy.

[/ QUOTE ]

oops.somehow i read that board as 33JJ.

[oaktoon]

I would think that you are a favorite to win when youve got an open end straight draw and flush draw, plus the hole cards are overcards against a small made or pocket pair. That's 19 outs twice.

[oaktoon]

oops-- you said "turn"

[kelvin474]

Here, you're not a favorite to win, but you have the best of it.

you: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
him: A /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Board: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif

He is currently outkicking you. However, he only has 3 outs to a win. You have 11 wins with 9 spades and 2 nonspade 4's, and eveything else is a chop.

[xpander]

44 games 0.005 secs 8,800 games/sec

Board: 3c 3d Jh Th
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 43.1818 % [ 00.43 00.00 ] { 2d2c }
Hand 2: 56.8182 % [ 00.57 00.00 ] { KhQh }

It's pretty close. Nice idea. I don't think there are any other similar situations.

[ChuckyB]

Wouldn't you get 26 outs if the 2h wasn't in opponent's hand?

[ QUOTE ]
slightly better than previous

3h 3d Jh Th

Qc Kh
2h 2s

is it possible to have more than 25 outs?

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

[fimbulwinter]

nope, 2h fills him up while it flushes me out

fim

[ChuckyB]

My bad...i'm a dumbass

[mindgamez_j]

Dont know if this example has already been used b/c i dont want to read thru them all but here it is anyway:

you hold J /images/graemlins/spade.gif10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
villain holds 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

FLOP: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif10 /images/graemlins/club.gif
TURN: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Suntzu00000]

I think if the other guy has TP and you have middle pair and a flush draw on the flop and your kicker is higher than TP you are a small favorite (around %4).

My bad, this is only on the flop.

[xorbie]

Hero: 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Villain: A/images/graemlins/club.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif

Board: 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Only 24 outs though.

edit: Interestingly, I had this exact situation (well I had QJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif but same respective board) come up in a game. I pushed the turn when I was checked to, guy folded the ass end of the straight.)

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

you: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
him: A /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Board: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif

He is currently outkicking you. However, he only has 3 outs to a win. You have 11 wins with 9 spades and 2 nonspade 4's, and eveything else is a chop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Along those lines, here are two other examples not due to me:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1029479
Board: 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 4.55 0 0.00 42 95.45 0.523
A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 0 0.00 2 4.55 42 95.45 0.477

Currently, A2 is counterfeited and outkicked. However, any 2 will give A2 a full house, and any other card will split.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1029468
Board: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 19 43.18 0 0.00 25 56.82 0.716
7/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 0 0.00 19 43.18 25 56.82 0.284

Currently, 65 is outkicked, but 65 can win with a flush, straight, or by pairing. 72 hopes to split the pot.