AK hand: tough turn

[gopnik]

Just joined the table, no reads.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

With a back door flush draw, ragged flop, and one opponent, I think my bet is fine here.

Turn: (3.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls.

I was torn here between getting a free card and betting this scary turn card to pick up the pot right here. I decided to bet because if I check behind and river is blank, if MP1 is at least half thinking player, he’d bet and I would have to let it go. Now, c/r….I don’t think I had the odds to call because I gave my AK 3-4 outs which meant the pot had to offer more than 10-1 (it was 6.75-1), but Ed Miller said somewhere that sometimes it’s ok to call a c/r so people won’t start taking shots at you. So, combined all that, I called.

River: (7.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

I thought long and hard about raising, but I was afraid of being reverse dominated here (I put MP1 on KQ) and just called.

Comments?


Final Pot: 9.75 BB

[btspider]

fold turn. if you think they are taking shots at you. check turn.

river can probably be raised, but i don't want to have to pay off a 3-bet.

[riffraff]

I think you need to fold the turn after getting check-raised.

Just call the river.

[sean c]

HU I like the bet the turn check the river through UI line best. I would fold to the turn c/r.

[noneckdude]

Betting the turn is fine in my opinion. The call after being check-raised however, I think was not. I think you should fold right there. (And sometimes play back if you think you're being 'played' a bit too often.) You could already be drawing dead and half your outs could make things worse. What if you're up against AQ or indeed KQ and you do catch... We'll get 'em next time. Next round please!

[MrWookie47]

That's an easy free card to take. I had a problem too with feeling obligated to bet the turn after raising preflop and betting the flop. Checking behind shows your weakness to your opponent, but the fact of the matter is that you are indeed weak.

If you call the turn, you've got to make up your mind what you're drawing to. If you hit your K and still feel like your hand is no good, then why did you call in the first place? Also, you narrowed down your opponents holdings far, far too much. KQ? From where? Just because he check raised you when a Q hit and bet at you when a K hit? He probably just isn't giving you credit for a K. Raise him. You probably have the best hand. If he makes it 3 bets, then consider putting him on KQ (or a slowplayed set, or Q4, or Q9, or Q2...)

[Thigh]

I don't know. I think you should have taken the free card on the turn. I think sometimes too much thinking goes into a play. That isn't all bad, but sometimes I think it confuses the issues.

For instance, the pot is 3.75 BB. How many outs are you drawing to? I count about 4 to 4.5. You're nowhere near the odds you need, plus you don't have a hand yet, unless you're counting an A high hand.

If you bet, and he c/r's you, then you need to fold. It's not worth it. Pot is entirely too small.

[btspider]

you guys are being results oriented. a turn bet is just fine, but you have to fold to the c/r. don't think about his outs.. he may very well have the best hand vs an opponent who peeled one off and is ready to fold.

[JMBills]

[ QUOTE ]

I thought long and hard about raising, but I was afraid of being reverse dominated here (I put MP1 on KQ) and just called.


[/ QUOTE ]

Without knowing if your opponent is naturally aggressive/passive, I don't think you can say he just has KQ. Wouldn't most micro players (who aren't bluffing) check-raise the turn with more than just top pair? You're probably even worse off than being reverse dominated... behind to two-pair or a set. The worst part is, the pot's small, your opponent probably realizes it too and wants to get the most value out of his hand.

I can't offer advice on the streets yet because I misplay them frequently myself and instead I turn to those who've already posted on that.

[Thigh]

That seems to be a catch phrase I keep on hearing, "results oriented". I'm not sure I understand that.

Everything I've learned so far tells me not to bet the turn. No hand, too few outs, small pot. But here you are saying, "Hey, forget the outs, that doesn't matter, and forget the size of the pot, just bet."

And I know there are some loose players, and maybe you're right, maybe he does have the best hand. But I wouldn't think so. How often is A high the best hand? This is a less then mediocre hand, with a very small pot. I cannot understand betting here.

Anyone want to elaborate? Thanks.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys are being results oriented. a turn bet is just fine, but you have to fold to the c/r. don't think about his outs.. he may very well have the best hand vs an opponent who peeled one off and is ready to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already said I like the turn bet heads up but assuming he did take the free card whats the correct river play? Are we inducing a bluff here often enough to make calling godd or is it just a clear fold. I know a read would help but lets assume an unknown.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
That seems to be a catch phrase I keep on hearing, "results oriented". I'm not sure I understand that.

Everything I've learned so far tells me not to bet the turn. No hand, too few outs, small pot. But here you are saying, "Hey, forget the outs, that doesn't matter, and forget the size of the pot, just bet."

And I know there are some loose players, and maybe you're right, maybe he does have the best hand. But I wouldn't think so. How often is A high the best hand? This is a less then mediocre hand, with a very small pot. I cannot understand betting here.

Anyone want to elaborate? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) AK-high in a heads-up situation is a pretty fine hand
2) There has been no aggression so far, Hero is likely good here a decent % of the time
3) Hero has some folding equity here

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
That seems to be a catch phrase I keep on hearing, "results oriented". I'm not sure I understand that.

Everything I've learned so far tells me not to bet the turn. No hand, too few outs, small pot. But here you are saying, "Hey, forget the outs, that doesn't matter, and forget the size of the pot, just bet."

And I know there are some loose players, and maybe you're right, maybe he does have the best hand. But I wouldn't think so. How often is A high the best hand? This is a less then mediocre hand, with a very small pot. I cannot understand betting here.

Anyone want to elaborate? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because most players who call a pre flop raise will peel one off on the flop regardless. A turn bet will win this hand quite often.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
That seems to be a catch phrase I keep on hearing, "results oriented". I'm not sure I understand that.

[/ QUOTE ]

What btspider means here is that everyone is saying don't bet the turn just because he got check-raised. Responses would probably be different had OP cut the action off at the turn bet. It's definitely a good bet for davelin's reasons.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you guys are being results oriented. a turn bet is just fine, but you have to fold to the c/r. don't think about his outs.. he may very well have the best hand vs an opponent who peeled one off and is ready to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already said I like the turn bet heads up but assuming he did take the free card whats the correct river play? Are we inducing a bluff here often enough to make calling godd or is it just a clear fold. I know a read would help but lets assume an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, if we check the turn. we should call a river bet with Ace high.

[Thigh]

Thanks davelin and everyone. I think my problem lies around the fact that I have a hard time remembering to change my play when I go into HU.

I like the 'lack of aggression' reason also. I don't think I was looking at that, since the c/r was staring me in the face, making me think he's being aggressive. Which he was, but that was after the fact.

One day I'll figure out what folding equity means. I'm sure it's on the board somewhere.

Again, thanks for the help.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
That seems to be a catch phrase I keep on hearing, "results oriented". I'm not sure I understand that.

Everything I've learned so far tells me not to bet the turn. No hand, too few outs, small pot. But here you are saying, "Hey, forget the outs, that doesn't matter, and forget the size of the pot, just bet."

And I know there are some loose players, and maybe you're right, maybe he does have the best hand. But I wouldn't think so. How often is A high the best hand? This is a less then mediocre hand, with a very small pot. I cannot understand betting here.

Anyone want to elaborate? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ace high is good here enough to warrant a bet. just b/c he called the flop, doesn't mean he has a pair.

[MrWookie47]

I respect your input, but I'm still confused. It seems to me that checking behind and calling a river bet costs the same as betting and folding to a check/raise, plus you get a river card and a showdown. I guess I have to weigh the chance that my opponent is tagging along with a low pair, the chance that the Q helped him and he'll c/r, the chance that my opponent will toss a low pair, and the chance that I'm still ahead. You think that your fold equity plus the times you're ahead outweigh the risk of the c/r enough to risk not making it to showdown?

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I respect your input, but I'm still confused. It seems to me that checking behind and calling a river bet costs the same as betting and folding to a check/raise, plus you get a river card and a showdown. I guess I have to weigh the chance that my opponent is tagging along with a low pair, the chance that the Q helped him and he'll c/r, the chance that my opponent will toss a low pair, and the chance that I'm still ahead. You think that your fold equity plus the times you're ahead outweigh the risk of the c/r enough to risk not making it to showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]

a missed flush/straight draw often won't pay a bet on the river, but they will on the turn. you also can't give a loose flop call from something like T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif a free card. we have a very vulnerable hand, we need to protect it from a LP.

bluff check-raises here are pretty uncommon and unprofitable considering how often we'll have a pair here and call down. we can't win every pot that we raise PF.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
I was torn here between getting a free card and betting this scary turn card to pick up the pot right here. I decided to bet because if I check behind and river is blank, if MP1 is at least half thinking player, he’d bet and I would have to let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see this thought process on these boards quite frequently and we should all identify it and stamp it out. If you decide to check the turn, it does not under any circumstance mean that you must fold to a river bet. In fact, checking behind on the turn with the intention of calling the river UI in a HU pot with a raggedy board and the best overs possible is often the best play (HU play is very opponent specific, IMHO). You check behind; your opponent senses weakness and bets the river with nothing; you call and collect 1BB (whereas if you'd have bet the turn he might fold, netting you 0). When you check behind and he has you beat, you got to showdown for 1BB and avoided the threat of a C/R on the turn.

Betting the turn is fine too (again, player specific) but if you do so I think you need to be prepared to fold to the C/R or you bet knowing you'd invest 3BBs more (the turn C/R and a river call) given your read on this player.

The point I want to emphasize is: checking the turn does not dictate one's play on the river.