Can't seem to break through and win.

[trumpman84]

I've made about 4-5 final tables in the few multi-table tournaments I've played in the past 4 months, but I can't seem to break through and win one. Am I playing too passively at the final tables? A couple examples of my final table play from the last $20/$2 I played. I entered 2nd in chips and finished fifth, though I took a couple of bad beats that prevented me from finishing higher.

Hand 1:

I have T /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and its fold to me in the small blind at the 1,500/3000 and an ante level. 8 left and I'm 4th T55,000..big blind is 3rd with just a little bit more. I pop it to $9,000 on a semi-steal. Big blind thinks for a while and min-raises to $15,000. I didn't feel that he had that big a hand..I felt this was more a feeler bet to see if I was on a pure steal or not. I decide I can't fold this hand for only 6,000 more in an almost $30,000 pot and my hand plays well post flop so I take a flop of

T52 with no hearts and two clubs.

I decided to check and see what he did as I wasn't too crazy about my hand. He bets $14,000. At this point I have $35,000 left so I can't call obviously so my only options are fold or all in. I tank and decide to fold given his play could mean a high pocket pair or a ten with a bigger kicker. He shows the A6o bluff, so I was right on about the hand not being that good, I just couldn't follow through and trust myself.

This is one instance where I felt being at the final table and having the prizes escalate at every elimination kept me from making the right play. Given the way I played preflop, I think the correct move was to lead into him and make it look like I was really pot committed, then kick my monitor and fold if he still comes over the top (still would've had a workable stack of about 10 BBs and certainly wouldnt of been the short stack) Another option would've been to fold preflop, but I don't see where this presents itself..as I a pretty decent hand and think I have to attempt a steal here and I don't think I can fold this good a preflop drawing hand for a min raise getting about 5 to 1.

Second hand, I'm in the cutoff with 42k at the $2,000/$4,000 with an ante level. 6 left and 1 shorter stack that is getting to the point of desperate. I get dealt K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and raise to $11,000. Small blind cold calls and Big blind raises up to $20k, so if I call the raise, I only have $22k left. The way the action panned out, I am sure at least one of the two has me in big domination trouble, so I grit my teeth and fold saving my $31k. As it turns out I wouldve won the hand when they check around a 223 flop and a J comes on the turn..small blind's pocket 7's took it down, but I'm sure the re-raiser had AK so my read was correct. I feel that I don't gamble as much at final tables in situations like this that I might earlier in the tournament when prizes don't escalate at every elimination, so I can't build a stack.

On the other hand, I lost a few key hands when I called a $12k short stack all in with A9s which was a correct call seeing he had Q6o but he flopped two pair and was finally eliminated when my AKs lost to AJo, but of course couldve survived if I had a bigger stack to work with.

What's the overall opinion? Too timid?..folding too much hoping to move up the prize ladder?

[sloth469]

To be honest I had a huge problem with this early on too. I have found recently though, that if I am not a big stack it helps to tighten up for an orbit or 2. This accomplishes a few things:

1) it gives the impression you are attempting to slide up a pay grade or 2

2) when you do open up you will be able to steal easier as they will put you on a hand since, see 1)

3) you often do move up a pay grade or two

I think it is a good idea to approach it as you would a shallow stacked SNG, when you do go you go for broke.

-sloth

[YourFoxyGrandma]

You're playing scared and being results oriented. The first hand you need to go with your read. If you put villain on a weak hand, why even consider folding?

The other hands you mentioned you did the right thing and got sucked out on or would've won, but had a worse hand. Don't worry about them. It takes alot of luck to win a big tournament. Keep making the right plays and it'll happen eventually.

[woodguy]

Hand #1 - Flat calling the raise is o.k as you are getting odds to see a flop with that hand.
He is going to bet if you check the flop even if he has 2 UNO cards, either bet yourself, or a better line IMHO is to check raise all in. You hit top pair HU, if he has a better hand, that's life, but you put chips in the pot, hit TP and then folded....way too weak tight.

Essentially, if you are give him credit for an overpair to yours here you should have folded to his raise PF, otherwise play to the felt on this flop.

Hand #2 - With you being the 2nd short stack, any move other than all in will probably be greeted with a raise by the larger stacks trying to bully you out of the pot, especially if they saw the earlier laydown.

Even though you are at 10BB's you have to realize that when you play a hand here, its probably for all your chips.

So if you are going to fold to re-raise after putting in 25% of your stack, either raise all in or fold PF, you cannot afford to bleed off chips here.

You are geting to the FT's so you have some game, don't start playing weak tight once you get there, because you didn't get there playing weak tight.

The FT, and especially the two tables before the FT are usually good places to steal away as most of your opponents are tightening up to fold their way up the pay ladder. The blinds are so huge that often you can take the chip lead without showing a hand.

Also, post without the results next time, as it won't sway the advice you get (i.e. showing that you folded best hand on hand#1 or that your hand would have held up on #2)

Regards,
Woodguy

[davidross]

First of all, with regards to breaking through and winning, be aware that there is a tremendous amount of luck involved once you have made the final table. THe blinds get very high and it turns into an all-in fest. THe guy who gets hot in the last hour wins. Obviously having more chips than your opponents allows you to lose a pot or two and still stay alive so getting to the final table with lots of chips helps.

THe better you play the more final tables you will make, and the better you play at them the more times you will win, but 4 or 5 final tables is certainly not enough to say whether you are playing well or not. In my experience the biggest factor in my final table results is how often I run into big hands. When I'm running well, my steals go uncalled and my big hands get called by slightly worse hands.

The first hand you gave is one that I would fold unless I was going to raise any 2 here. It's totally dependant on your opponnent. If he's pretty tight I make the raise you did with any 2 cards. If he's at all loose I want a better hand than T high to raise him. Nothing wrong with your raise, but you have to know you are behind when he calls or re-raises. I would call the raise as you did, but once you flop top pair you have to play this (otherwise you should fold to the re-raise). You need to develop an attitude of "If I'm beat I'm beast, but I decided to play these cards and now that they hit I'm playing it out".

2nd hand I would have just moved in pre-flop. Better players would probably play it your way, but from LP and the blinds any raise can look like a steal, so you get played back at a lot, as you did. By moving in pre-flop those tougher decisions can be avoided.

I try and play pretty tight at a final table. Every elimination usually means a good bit of money, but if you come in with chips you can use them to build a real nice stack if everyone else is playing tight. You have to be prepared to take what the table will give you.

On your good nights you'll have AK when the other guy gets KJ, and KK to his QQ. Keep making final tables and the rest will take care of itself.

[shejk]

"I decide I can't fold this hand for only 6,000 more in an almost $30,000 pot"

So push. Punish him. Maybe next time he won't mess with you without a hand. That will take you a long way.

If he do calls, you're only a 42.2% dog against AKo for example (48.4% dog against A6o). And as you said, you did have a read on him as weak. Go with it!

If you don't push here, you have to do it on the flop. I either lead here or I check with the intention to push.

"I decided to check and see what he did as I wasn't too crazy about my hand."

What do you think he will do when you check to him? Of course he bets.

[EverettKings]

Try this.

The next tournament you play, don't expand the pay schedule. Look at the pay for number 1. Play to win it. Nothing else.

I attribute one of my big wins to the day I started doing that. Getting to the final table is one thing, but once there the ONLY thing I'm thinking about is how to get ALL of the chips (I seriously think of my stack in terms of percent of all tournament chips).

As for your hands

Hand 1 (like everyone said) you have to play once you see that flop. Check raising all in is better than just pushing, because if you check you can induce a bluff whereas a push will usually only be called if you are beat. If you ran into a monster and flopped a good second best hand, so be it. Load another tourney. Whether or not to raise that hand in the first place is dependent on how passive/tight the player is, so only you konw if it was right there.

Other hands, fine. Against weaker players (like those you find in the 20+2s) I prefer just raising the KJs to pushing. Against trickier players that will play back at you with marginal stuff, just push. The rest is fine.

Don't let it get to you that you aren't winning. One of these days, your good hands will hold, you won't run into monsters, and everything will be just peachy. But the less scared you play, the sooner you'll hit jackpot.

-Kings