AK gets re-raised - how to play?

[Rocco]

Common scenario... I sit in early or mid position with AK and put in a raise of 4-5xBB. Someone in late position/blinds triples or quadruples my bet...

1. What's my action?

2. Say I call and flop comes rag, rag, rag and he bets out about pot-size. Clear lay-down?

3. Ace or king flops and he bets out pot-size. Call? Raise? How much?

Questions from lost limit player...

[krazyace5]

Preflop-Depends on the player and if it is suited or not but I would fold most of the time. Thats a pretty strong reraise.

[flyingmoose]

I fold preflop. Either you're a small underdog, or you're a big underdog. You're not beating a whole lot when this raise comes.

You also have very little in the way of implied odds, since your hand won't exactly be a secret when you hit it.

[Bongo]

I agree with the others. Fold preflop.

On the flop: check and fold if you miss. If you hit your two pair, well then you're in position to go broke or win what he just bet out. I think a call is better than a raise here because if he does not have AK, AA or KK he'll give up and you take the pot. If you reraise he'll dump anything but AK AA or KK (or possibly AQ if he's a wild one).

Honestly, I don't know if I could fold this hand on the turn if he bets again after I call on the flop. People just make too many strange plays and if you're not going to fold on the turn then I don't think it mattters whether you call or raise.

[Bongo]

oh, sorry, I misread point 3.

[lawpoker]

i'm really suprised at everyone advocating laying down AK pf. sure, if some rock reraises me, i'll think about it. but is this a standard line?

[Bongo]

when someone triples or quadruples my raise then I'd fold AK most of the time yes. I'm fairly new at NL so this situation actually hasn't come up that many times, but let's say I would fold most of the time. I'd think I was up against a pp and I can't really win big in that situation but I can definately go broke. Perhaps it's too weak, but I'd rather be weak pf than post flop. After all I haven't invested that much yet.

[Skjonne]

Unless it's a know maniac, I fold preflop. Yes I could be in front, but position is crucial and I'll have to lay down my hand on a rag-flop when he bets.

[meow_meow]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm really suprised at everyone advocating laying down AK pf. sure, if some rock reraises me, i'll think about it. but is this a standard line?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the amount of the reraise. If villain min-raises you, it's an obvious call, but the average player isn't going to reraise a good sized raise by that much without AA, KK, QQ, maybe AKs, sometimes JJ...

[mgsimpleton]

i disagree with most of the posters. i rarely fold this because i think there are some decent implied odds and the reverse implied odds aren't too bad.

often the reraise is JJ or QQ or even sometimes 10 10 from the button... so if an A or K falls on the flop you can check call or even check raise if you want to end it there. players, often ones that are not great, will reraise preflop then when the A falls on the flop bet it thinking "well i'm the aggressor so they must be scared of the A" and change what they're really representing part way through. especially if they are not tricky and/or smart enough to bet the set of aces, when an A falls, you can often make a fair amount of money. if the case A falls and you hold AK versus AA well that sucks, there are your reverse implied odds. if it's AK v AA and a K falls, proceed with caution...

i don't know, i'm a much better postflop player than preflop player and i trust my reads often enough that i say go for it. these postflop skills may be reducing my reverse implied odds, which is obviously the most dangerous part of playing this hand. that and you only hit 30% on the flop so you will be giving up that money 70%... well not to mention stacking someone if you hit a flush or a Q J 10 flop or something like that.

sorry if this post is convoluted. that's how my mind is right now.

[MikeL]

[ QUOTE ]
Common scenario... I sit in early or mid position with AK and put in a raise of 4-5xBB. Someone in late position/blinds triples or quadruples my bet...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a common mistake that NL Tournament players
bring to the NL Cash game. That is, AK (particularly the
unsuited variety) is a GREAT tournament hand. You can
escalate to all-in and threat someones tournament
existence. Or, if short stacked, you can just push all-in
up front.

In a cash game, however, AK is a good but not great hand.
Stack size really does matter much (if at all). It is
a drawing hand, pre-flop it is just the nut-no-pair. If
you push this hand consistently hard in a cash game,
you will end up winning alot of small pots, but losing
massive ones.

Unless I am late-mid or late position, I am trying to limp
to see the flop. Then I want to do some pot control to
keep it relatively small until the river so I don't
give odds to chasers. If I am late-mid or late position,
I might bet an amount I think will buy me the button. But,
this is for positon, not because I think AK is a POWER
cash game hand.

As to calling after a massive raise, this is a HUGE cash
game mistake, unless you know something about the raiser.

Regards,
Mike

[Skjonne]

[ QUOTE ]
i think there are some decent implied odds and the reverse implied odds aren't too bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to explain? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone in late position/blinds triples or quadruples my bet...

[/ QUOTE ]

These are two completely different things. Do you see why?

Anyway, the answer depends on a whole host of things, including your image, the villains image, stack sizes, position, etc etc.

But as a general rule I don't think you can ever make that big of a mistake by folding.

[soah]

Best first post ever.

But you may wish to consider choosing a new name before you get confused with him (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showprofile.php?Cat=&User=176&what=search&Forum=Al l_Forums&Words=the&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&where=bod ysub&Name=176&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=w&o lderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=), him (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showprofile.php?Cat=&User=18&what=search&Forum=All _Forums&Words=the&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&where=body sub&Name=18&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=w&old erval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=), or any of the other Mike L's who post here.

[MikeL]

[ QUOTE ]
Best first post ever.

But you may wish to consider choosing a new name before you get confused

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for the kind words! I am a convert from the
rec.games.poker usenet group. RGP used to be worth
following until the noise to content ratio (n:c) got
to high to be bearable. I could take it when it was
about 4:1 or 5:1 (I must be sick, I see everything in
odds!), but now it must be 25:1, which is too high
for me to sift out.

As to a username, I don't think I can change it now,
can I? Also, I really don't care to use anything
that resembles any of my poker logon names. Either
I will be a fish to some who will persue me, or I will
be a shark (I can only dream) and scare away the
smaller fish.

I've gain alot of confirmation of hunches I've had
about NL Cash game theory since I been following.
I only hope to be able to contibute 10% of what
I take.

I am about to post my first original thread, soon.
I have been analyzing the win rates of different
betting approaches when dealing with chasers. I hope
you'll critque it.

Thanks,
Mike

[soah]

You cannot change your name. I meant you should consider registering a new account. It's not the end of the world if you continue posting as MikeL but it could potentially cause confusion at some point.

[DyessMan89]

For calling-

Pros-

* Hand Strength
* Raise came from LP and not EP with lots of players to act after him

Cons-

* You will be first to act on the flop most of the time (unless hes in a blind)
* Raise came after hes seen you raise


Nuetral-

* Other players that are in pot (info wasnt given)
* Pot Odds (Info unknown, but I assume your getting around 2 to 1)
* Agression of re-raiser (info not given)

Therefore, Im undecided, I would need more info. But, I would probobly fold because you have a drawing hand, and the fact that youll be first to act most of the time. If you hit your hand great, but most likley you wont. (and either your opponent will or hell make a big bet after he sees you check and youll be forced to fold) If hes in the blind Id probobly call, but the aggression of the re-raiser is key.