Protecting my hand - flopped a straight

[Messy Harry]

What do you guys think of my play here? People checked, but didn't fold or raise so I assumed they were drawing to something - the diamonds and the straight draw were out there. I didn't have reads (sorry).

I was in the cutoff and wasn't sure if the button would bet, so I kept betting when it was checked to me.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (7.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

[shadow29]

Why did you just call the river raise? This can easily mean trips. And you're last to act.

[DeadManJay]

I think you played this hand the only way that you could.

edit: oops didn't notice the river raise, I would have 3-bet there.

[Entity]

I'd raise preflop and 3-bet the river.

[Aaron W.]

When you flop a straight, you're betting "for value". And you basically want to bet it as much as possible as possible until the board brings something bad. In this case, the extra ten isn't enough to stop me from 3-betting the river. You only lose if he poorly played QT, 9T, 6T, QQ, TT, 99, or 66. You've also got a caller hanging around, adding more value to the 3-bet. (Although your tone and the fact that you asked this question leads me to believe that you lost. Don't worry about it.)

[shadow29]

I normally just call this hand at CO at 2/4.

Do you think I should raise?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
When you flop a straight, you're betting "for value".

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for saying this.

I'm really tired of everyone asking "how do I protect my hand?" when they flop a monster. It's like hand protection is the new black.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I normally just call this hand at CO at 2/4.

Do you think I should raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm like the cookie monster, only for buttons. Give me Buttons!

But yeah, I think your hand has plenty of value against two limpers and I prefer it 3-ways for 2bets (+initiative, +position) to 5-ways for 1bet.

Rob

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
Give me Buttons!

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I'm not sure how much value "raising for the button" has. I can't quantify it, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Give me Buttons!

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I'm not sure how much value "raising for the button" has. I can't quantify it, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having absolute position over the rest of the field with a decent hand has a lot of value dude, trust me.

First of all, your hand has value. You should be confident in that if you're playing it.

Secondly, you'll be able to represent a wide range of hands when you take initiative in the pot. If you raise preflop, you can often take credit for an Ace (when it flops) against two bad limpers and steal a decent-sized pot.

It's not just for position, but position is one of the concerns that makes the raise worthwhile.

Rob

[shadow29]

Oh I know KJ has value, but I'm not sure raising for the button with a liberal range of hands has all the value that some laud.

I think you'll get cold called more often than not. Thus, I'm really only trying to steal the button for the sole purpose of having the button with a wide range of hands against a tighter player, not a player that's likely to cc.

[Messy Harry]

If it counts for anything, I was thinking value early in the hand, but didn't feel I could rely on the button to bet it for me so I could check raise.

Once we got to the river, I was thinking that a raise meant I was beat. However I appreciate your points about rasing for value against a possible trips hand here - aggression is something else I'm working on.

The river raiser showed 9,10 for the boat /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Entity]

I'm never raising a hand I don't think is worth a raise.

However, I raise for a wide variety of reasons:

Position.
Value.
Metagame considerations (these are lesser, but I do find that they help generate action for me).

I never raise a hand that isn't worthwhile of a raise, but my list of "worthwhile" hands is probably larger than yours, and includes hands like T9s, 98s [sometimes, depending on image], and 77, KJo, K8s, etc., here.

If the limpers are tight, that's a whole different ballgame, but they usually aren't.

Rob

[zuluking]

I agree with Entity to raise pf in THIS situation. But its now always the case with KJ.

[shadow29]

Ah, ok. That's much better. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

98s sucks, you lag. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, ok. That's much better. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

98s sucks, you lag. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a once in a blue moon raise, and worked out well for me so far. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think it's a great hand. Earlier today I openraised T8s from the CO, was 3-bet from the blinds but flopped a flush, and turned a straight flush.

God smiles at you when you raise lots of hands from LP. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[shadow29]

Don't be so results oriented, fish. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't be so results oriented, fish. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be such a nit.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise preflop and 3-bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was a real snoozer... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
The river raiser showed 9,10 for the boat /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This must be why you were implying that you could protect your hand better. You are being results-oriented.

Even with the best hand on the flop &amp; turn, you still aren't going to win 100% of the time. That's just poker. Variance comes with the territory. But you will win the vast amjority of the time in this situation. So considering the fact that for every 10 times you have this situation you'll win 8 times or more, why do you think its a good idea to "protect" your hand? Just what are you protecting yourself from?

Don't be afraid to bet your good hands for value.

[Shillx]

You wan't advice? Check/fold the river. I'm all about results.

Honestly what do you wan't us to say here? Oh yeah, 3-bet the river in a heartbeat and then you get a ni han.

Brad

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
You wan't advice? Check/fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's scary is that shill might be serious. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
You wan't advice? Check/fold the river. I'm all about results.

Honestly what do you wan't us to say here? Oh yeah, 3-bet the river in a heartbeat and then you get a ni han.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly, remember protection is for marginal to moderately strong hands, ones that have a good chunk of equity but also are fairly easily drawn out on .. a flopped straight really only in trouble with 2pair, sets, and 4flushes, well none of those hands are going anywhere but you are a 2/1 favorite or better vs them .. if they get there they win, if they don't you do .. but thats the worst case, often you'll get plenty of action from weaker hands that don't have the drawout capability

protection is for hands like overpairs, or bottom2pair, or TPMK .. where you need to worry about weak draws beating you

[DavidC]

When the T lands on the river and you get raised, think about this:

Has anyone, throughout the entire hand, shown any kind of strength that would have indicated two pair?

Therefore, you must raise this river, and call if he caps.

Other than that, you played it perfectly (though I'm not sure of the PF call). If they check to you, you protect your hand most by betting, because otherwise you're giving them infinite odds to draw to miracle hands.

--Dave.