Maximum extracted?

[theblitz]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($73.38)
Button ($31.85)
SB ($8.29)
BB ($25.1)
UTG ($23.65)
UTG+1 ($25.5)
Hero ($29.5)
MP1 ($22)
MP2 ($24.65)
MP3 ($86.45)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $0.5</font>, MP2 calls $0.50, MP3 calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25.

Flop: ($2.60) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $2</font>, Hero calls $2, MP1 calls $2, MP2 calls $2, MP3 folds.

Turn: ($10.60) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, MP1 calls $6, MP2 folds, BB calls $4.

River: ($28.60) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10</font>, MP1 folds, BB calls $10.

Final Pot: $48.60

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has 5h 6h (flush, ace high).
Hero has Qh Th (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins $48.60. </font>

My main question is do I check the river and hope for a bet by MP1?

[mother_brain]

I'll make my first post on this one here. I personally think that you played it pretty much perfectly. Only other possible line would have been to simply call the turn bet, but I seriously don't like that one as well.

[-Skeme-]

Fold preflop.

[JaBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
WRONG

[JaBlue]

Raise to 8 on the turn, value bet more like 15-20 on the river.

[tbach24]

Necesitas levantar el fracaso.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
WRONG

[/ QUOTE ]

QTh is garbage. Fold preflop. I'm not talking about after he the minraise, either, in case that's what you're referring to.

[JaBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
WRONG

[/ QUOTE ]

QTh is garbage. Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the table conditions and you will see why you're wrong.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
WRONG

[/ QUOTE ]

QTh is garbage. Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the table conditions and you will see why you're wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than the raise being a minraise, which he can't fold, I see nothing.

[JaBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
WRONG

[/ QUOTE ]

QTh is garbage. Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the table conditions and you will see why you're wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than the raise being a minraise, which he can't fold, I see nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of loose passive limpers willing to pay off a hand with 100BB stacks.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
WRONG

[/ QUOTE ]

QTh is garbage. Fold preflop. I'm not talking about after he the minraise, either, in case that's what you're referring to.

[/ QUOTE ]

¿Es QTc mejor? Pero, seriamente si esta jugando QTs bien, entonces juga él.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of loose passive limpers willing to pay off a hand with 100BB stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

That has nothing to do with me telling him to fold preflop as I have no idea that they're loose-passive players willing to pay off hands. My advice should be entering his mind when it is his turn to either call, fold or raise. My advice is to fold.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
WRONG

[/ QUOTE ]

QTh is garbage. Fold preflop. I'm not talking about after he the minraise, either, in case that's what you're referring to.

[/ QUOTE ]

¿Es QTc mejor? Pero, seriamente si esta jugando QTs bien, entonces juga él.

[/ QUOTE ]

Translator says, "Is QTc better? But, seriously if this playing QTs well, then plays he." No, QTc isn't better. QT sucks overall, whether suited or not. I fold this, I suggest he does too. Sidenote: I have that rookie card in some old shoebox.

[JaBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of loose passive limpers willing to pay off a hand with 100BB stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

That has nothing to do with me telling him to fold preflop as I have no idea that they're loose-passive players willing to pay off hands. My advice should be entering his mind when it is his turn to either call, fold or raise. My advice is to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, think about it more. This hand is all you have to know about this table. The way this hand was played preflop indicates that pots with many loose passive limpers are occuring pretty often. Assuming that OP realizes this and therefore this is his rational for playing QTs first in with a limp, the preflop action is fine.

If he did this at a very aggressive table with few limpers and tons of preflop raising, you'd be right. But this isn't one of those tables.

[JaBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
QT sucks overall, whether suited or not. I fold this, I suggest he does too.

[/ QUOTE ]

This fuzzy thinking doesn't take nearly enough paramaters into consideration and will cost you eventually.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
No, think about it more. This hand is all you have to know about this table. The way this hand was played preflop indicates that pots with many loose passive limpers are occuring pretty often. Assuming that OP realizes this and therefore this is his rational for playing QTs first in with a limp, the preflop action is fine.

If he did this at a very aggressive table with few limpers and tons of preflop raising, you'd be right. But this isn't one of those tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I have no information about this table as my advice is for him before he's acted. I haven't seen everybody limping and calling and playing super passively yet. This is not to say that I wouldn't play suited connectors or suited gapped connectors at a table like this, I'm just saying I normally fold QT and he should too.


[ QUOTE ]
This fuzzy thinking doesn't take nearly enough paramaters into consideration and will cost you eventually.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hardly consider folding QTh in EP/MP position fuzzy thinking and an -EV play. I've said two or three times that I'm speaking at a point in time where he hasn't noticed they're this passive. Obviously if all of these passive players, willing to pay off hands, have nice stacks and you can see a flop cheap with hands like these than it's fine.. I'm not debating that, I'm saying currently I have no idea they play like this and I fold QTh until I have a solid read on the table. Make sense?

[JaBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, think about it more. This hand is all you have to know about this table. The way this hand was played preflop indicates that pots with many loose passive limpers are occuring pretty often. Assuming that OP realizes this and therefore this is his rational for playing QTs first in with a limp, the preflop action is fine.

If he did this at a very aggressive table with few limpers and tons of preflop raising, you'd be right. But this isn't one of those tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I have no information about this table as my advice is for him before he's acted. I haven't seen everybody limping and calling and playing super passively yet. This is not to say that I wouldn't play suited connectors or suited gapped connectors at a table like this, I'm just saying I normally fold QT and he should too.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my last attempt to explain it. Let's assume that this isn't hero's first hand at the table.

Hero knows the table conditions. He didn't post them, but he knows them. We don't know the table conditions. Our only insight into the table conditions is how this hand was played by the table preflop. This is the best information we have to extrapolate. In doing this, we can say that this table is most likely loose passive preflop and therefore hero's PF play is fine. Hero limped based on information that we didn't know. It is not unreasonable for us to find that information through how this hand was played preflop as it is the only indication we have of how the table's been playing.

[-Skeme-]

You don't have to explain anything. I've understood what you're talking about the whole time. It's you who hasn't understood my comments.

In conclusion, if Hero knew this table was passive and paid off hands, then calling with hands like QTh and such is fine.

If you don't know anything, fold QTh, because it sucks. When I said fold QTh, I was referring to when you don't know anything.

Raise on flop.

[Tboner7]

The last time I folded QT suited, I missed a royal flush. This doesn't really add anything, but I just felt like sharing my pain. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
WRONG

[/ QUOTE ]

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise to 8 on the turn, value bet more like 15-20 on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

very good

[theblitz]

In case anyone wondered where I had disappeared to in this discussion - I was in bed. Even I go to sleep after 2 AM (sometimes).

Anyway, the table was nice and loose.
On average we were getting 45% in the flop.
I can't remember now how passive it was but with the loosness that it had I figured that the possibility of getting many players in the pot outweighed the possibility of getting raised and having to fold.

Of course, once I was in I had to call the mini-raise.

Probabaly should have posted more of this to start with but it was 2AM.
Besides, would have spoilt a nice part of the thread,

[theblitz]

[ QUOTE ]
The last time I folded QT suited, I missed a royal flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
And I thought things like that only happened to me.

Folded AJs after a big raise and then big re-raise before me. After I folded they continued to bet and ended up all-in before the flop. I was pleased I got out of the way. Until I saw the community cards!
Would have had the Royal on the turn.

Worst part of it - they didn't even have great hands. One had 7s and the other AQo!!!!!

Only ever Royal in nearly 60,000 ring table hands.

[theblitz]

AT last we are back to the direction I wanted.

Yeah, I suppose that 8 would probably had made more sense.
Question is whether 15-20 would have scared them off on the river. Besides, had I bet 8 on the turn then they wouldn't have had 20 with which to call.

As a side issue, sometimes I find that at these limits it pays to bet slightly below the villians total stack. Players seem to be more willing to call if they leave themselves something. They tend to forget that it is irrelevant since they can always buy-in.
Anyone else notice this?

[theblitz]

MP1 said he had the straight and would have bet out had I checked it to him.
However, with a check before me and only one player to follow I couldn't really take the chance.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
WRONG

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiousity.. if you have no read on the table, do you play QT?

[kevin017]

skeme i don't exactly understand your point. in this case its obvious that the table is loose and Q 10s is playable, why do you keep mentioning that if the table were tight you should fold?

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
do you keep mentioning that if the table were tight you should fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you should fold QTs. It sucks. Under the right circumstances you play it. These are the right circumstances, but I was speaking from the point in time where you don't know about it. This could've been the first hand where so many people saw the flop for all I know, he didn't specify.