NLO8

[Phat Mack]

NLO8, button antes $1, single $2 blind.

UTG makes it $5; four callers: I call with As2JT rainbow; blind calls. Seven take the flop, $35 in pot.

Flop is Q98. It is checked to me. I have the current nut high and backdoor nut low draw. I have $200; blind and UTG have $50, other four have me covered. I feel that I have too much hand for the size of the pot. I want to see a low card come on the turn, preferably a 7, 6, 5, 4 or 3 and trap the low drawers into making a mistake. I don't want a J, T or pairing card to come. There are 20 cards that I want, 15 cards that I don't want; the rest I have mixed feelings about. But there is a ~%75 chance that 4th street will bring a flush draw. Comments?

I bet $10 as a pot-builder/semi-steal lookalike. I get 5 callers. This is interesting. 80% of the players at the table consider 2 pair a good hand in this situation, and no one comes over the top. What could they have? Blind is a calling station, and he might have triggered a chain reaction. UTG, a rock, has dropped. $95 in the pot. Comments?

Turn is a 6s. There is now a low draw on board and two spades. Blind bets $15; three callers; $155 in the pot and $15 to me. I have $190 in front of me. Of my four opponents, if a spade comes on the river, I can use my dry As to get 2 of them to lay down a smaller flush if they have nothing else (Provided I have money left in my stack), but they will stay with spades and a 3rd nut low.

What's my play here? From a FTOP perspective, do I want callers?

[Zeno]

Some rambling comments:

You seem to be clinging to the margins on this one - which is why I suppose you posted it. Is this becoming a slippery slope hand where you end up trapping yourself? In the early stages the hand feels like a 10-20 limit game. I would not bet this hand on the flop with others to act behind and so many players in the pot. The call is marginal but justified. On the turn you get the low draw with the two flush. Now you must hit low to get half the pot and a rag non-spade, don't pair the board please, for the straight to hold up. Your on a cliff hanging by your fingernails- there are five players still in ready to whack you on the head. Waiting until the river and using the dry ace to bluff with is not that good of an idea in my opinion. In Omaha-hi with big stacks this works at times but my sense is that you will get callers, this a tricky play and your reads must be excellent.

On the turn, $15 is reasonably cheap and about all your hand is worth. If you try to push everyone out of the pot now - will anyone fold? The blind and UTG are about tapped out so they appear pot committed. Just call and pray.

Overall this hand is very hard to play and I hate having the nut straight on the flop with no other redraws except the low. You typically must assume that you are playing for half the pot at best. Perhaps you should have ripped your cards up the instant the flop hit. Although I hope you pulled out the right card on the river and scooped - I some how doubt it.

Best regards,

-Zeno

[Phat Mack]

Forgot to mention that I have the button here.

[Lurker]

He had the nut high on the flop, and here on the turn he has still has the nut high and now a nut low draw.

What's wrong with jamming the pot now? Certainly, he doesn't want the board to pair on the river or a high flush card to show up...but isn't he winning now?

For that matter, what would be the matter with betting the flop hard? Not hard to get away from an opponent's flush if the third suited card shows up on the turn, so in the meantime why let them draw cheaply?

I should add that I have almost no experience with O8; these are honest questions.

-L

[Ray Zee]

you are playing this hand like you have something special and want to trap people. it isnt that kiod of hand. maybe you should have just moved in before the flop and played headup or won the 30 bucks right there. or on the flop when they all checked move in and hope you win it or catch someone calling with trips. nothing really good can happen on fourth street for you so why bet an amount to suck them in and let them pick up monster draws which takes away any equity you had before.

[Phat Mack]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
you are playing this hand like you have something special and want to trap people

[/ QUOTE ]

My game needs a major tune up. I am rereading your HLFAP and DS's TOP. I was struck by your remarks on the fragillity of hands with two hi and two low cards. I think this has been a major leak in my game recently. I dredged up this hand because it had an A2 JT. (The A doesn't give me high value after the flop.)

On the other hand, I'm working on some problems from the perspective of the fundamental theory of poker, and am trying to develop a feel where it would be wrong or right for an opponent to call here. I felt that an opponent calling for a low draw might be wrong if he was essentially drawing for 1/4 the pot. The problems are 1) there are too many people in the pot and 2) If some one has been sucked in with something like A2s3Ks, he's not making a mistake regardless of what I bet on 4th street. If I want an example of forcing a bad play, this ain't it.

In the hand, I went all-in on 4th street and took it down.

[Zeno]

"In the hand, I went all-in on 4th street and took it down." /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif Everyone whimped out! Nice gutsy play. Congradulations! I think Mr. Zee wanted you to do this on the flop. His other comments are equally good. I think we need to thank him for his inputs recently in the pot-limit forum.

THANKS RAY!

-Zeno