call or raise? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

joop

03-17-2005, 05:37 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero...?

wyoak

03-17-2005, 05:47 PM

i can think of no good reason to just call this

crownjules

03-17-2005, 05:52 PM

Raise. You have TPGK and more often than not, SB beat. Call a 3-bet.

Redd

03-17-2005, 06:38 PM

You can't raise to protect. But you can definitely raise for value.

davelin

03-17-2005, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i can think of no good reason to just call this

[/ QUOTE ]

If we know action will go something similar on the turn, wouldn't calling be a good thing?

Shillx

03-17-2005, 06:41 PM

i can think of no good reason to just call this

Change it to...

i can think of no good reason not to just call this

Much better. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Calling is fun.

Brad

@bsolute_luck

03-17-2005, 06:52 PM

call. raising isn't folding anyone that can beat you at this point.

how is raising for value? you have an easily dominated TPGK with no draws and the board is coordinated.

toss

03-17-2005, 06:53 PM

True we don't know if we can raise this for value just yet. The turn will bring the answer yes?

gopnik

03-17-2005, 06:55 PM

raise.
SB probably has Jx or a draw. You are ahead. Raise. (too bad SB is not on your immediate right)

slickterp

03-17-2005, 06:59 PM

raise. while easily dominated, the SB surely would have raised into an unraised pot w/ AJ, maybe even KJ. probably he has something along the lines of JT down to maybe J7.

istewart

03-17-2005, 06:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i can think of no good reason to just call this

[/ QUOTE ]

If we know action will go something similar on the turn, wouldn't calling be a good thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you expand on this?

davelin

03-17-2005, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i can think of no good reason to just call this

[/ QUOTE ]

If we know action will go something similar on the turn, wouldn't calling be a good thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you expand on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hero has an equity edge, why not push it on the big-sized street rather than raise the flop and have it just be checked to us on the turn?

I dunno, I may be totally way off base here but that's my thinking. Another thought may be our equity is better defined on the turn when a non-club falls.

@bsolute_luck

03-17-2005, 07:03 PM

i'll try:

you're completing the betting. the turn comes, you're assuming SB is gonna raise again and you have position to see what others have and see if your JJ Q kicker is standing. that's my thought anyways.

joop

03-17-2005, 07:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
True we don't know if we can raise this for value just yet. The turn will bring the answer yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I thought after the turn came. Maybe I could raise the flop with a small amount of pot equity, but I can raise the turn when a blank comes with more pot equity, although I thought it was borderline given the queen kicker.

Flop: (6 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero folds

istewart

03-17-2005, 07:06 PM

Thanks for clearing that up. I was unsure of what you meant by "action being similar on the turn."

Shillx

03-17-2005, 07:10 PM

You think you had kicker problems?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG posts a blind of $2.
UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, UTG (poster) checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds.

River: (13.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

MHIG

Redd

03-17-2005, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
how is raising for value? you have an easily dominated TPGK with no draws and the board is coordinated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, you have TPGK, and the board isn't that coordinated. You definitely have the best hand more than 1 time in 6 here, so IMO raising will get some value.

Having said that, I don't want to argue with Shill and Toss. So is this one of those times that waiting for a safe turn card is better? Give up a bit of EV on the flop for EV on the turn and all that.

It seems like every time I see this logic, it's the exact polar opposite of a common phrase around here: 'get the money in while you have the best hand.' Why doesn't this apply here?

Also, what if SB has a monster and you get 3-bet on the turn? Isn't it better to find that out on the cheap streets?

joop

03-17-2005, 07:14 PM

Not kicker problems. What I meant was, my kicker was strong enough that not many overcards could come (only an A or K), giving me more pot equity. So I thought my reluctance to raise was borderline, meaning maybe I should definately have been raising. This is why I wanted others' opinions.

ihardlyknowher

03-17-2005, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, J.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J, 3, 2 (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero...?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise b/c:
(a) ur hand is likely best;
(b) u want to charge the flush draws;
(c) it's 0.50/1 so the callers have any 2;
(d) if the SB has u beat he will re-raise, and then u can go it check/call mode or fold to turn aggression (not sure which would be right)

LoaferGee12

03-17-2005, 09:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
call. raising isn't folding anyone that can beat you at this point.

how is raising for value? you have an easily dominated TPGK with no draws and the board is coordinated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Why are you calling if you don't think you have a +EV hand here. To draw for your 3 queens? Are you folding the turn if you don't improve? I see much value in raising this flop. The board is hardly coordinated which is why I don't see a reason to wait for the turn. Our equity is not going to take any significant jump on the turn if we hit a blank.

LoaferGee12

03-17-2005, 09:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]

(b) u want to charge the flush draws;

[/ QUOTE ]

Important concept about "charging flush draws"
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=459928&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1

LoaferGee12

03-17-2005, 09:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You think you had kicker problems?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG posts a blind of $2.
UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, UTG (poster) checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds.

River: (13.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

MHIG

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why you are waiting for the turn on this uncoordinated board. Seems like you'd be able to get an extra bet or two out of those middle callers that you wouldn't get on the turn.

KaiShin

03-17-2005, 09:38 PM

Read this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1851132&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1&vc=1) , maybe it will give you a new perspective on passive play, and when it can be used to your advantage.

In the original post, given Hero's relative position to the bettor and the rest of the field, a call will win you more money if your hand stands up. A raise will serve to isolate you against players who can beat you. Aggression is not always correct.

HollywoodDB

03-17-2005, 09:41 PM

I think this is an easy raise. This hand needs to be protected. I think you want to win this pot ASAP.

This is what I do, maybe this is a leak in my game.

Entity

03-17-2005, 09:42 PM

RAISING HERE DOES NOT PROTECT HERO'S HAND.

That said, there's a reasonable chance I'll raise here. It really depends on what range of hands I think SB will lead the turn with.

Rob

ihardlyknowher

03-17-2005, 09:47 PM

Thank you. Okay, raise for value because your pot equity is over 25%. Is that the proper way to think about it?

KaiShin

03-17-2005, 09:48 PM

Yes, if you raise here its for value.

If I came across this situation right now I'd raise too, but I'm trying to look at things from a different angle and I can see good arguments for a call.

@bsolute_luck

03-17-2005, 10:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain why you are waiting for the turn on this uncoordinated board. Seems like you'd be able to get an extra bet or two out of those middle callers that you wouldn't get on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

in this situation your position to close betting is immediately right of the bettor. by reraising, you run the risk of having the weaker hands you want in the hand folding. flush draws are staying in no matter as well as any A/K, so betting is not for protection.

by raising the flop, assuming all call and no raise you get 3SB. plus they will probably check to you UI on the turn and you could lose their bets by raising.

by calling the flop, yes you run the risk of an AK (Q you are still ahead, another club- you weren't folding a flush draw anyways), but you have a very strong chance of winning minimum 3BB and reraise maximizing your winnings if they again call.

that's why it may be betting for value on the flop, but wouldn't it be more valuable to wait 'til turn?

LoaferGee12

03-18-2005, 09:20 AM

There are too many hands that a player will peel on the flop with, only to dump UI on the turn. Why not get the value out of them while you still can. And I understand that this raise in no way means protection.

stoxtrader

03-18-2005, 10:37 AM

ihardlyknow her is exactly right on points A,B and C. point D is not bad, but doesnt recognize that a 3 bet by opponent does not mean you are beat all of the time, as a good draw is easily capable of making this play.

Isura

03-18-2005, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
RAISING HERE DOES NOT PROTECT HERO'S HAND.

That said, there's a reasonable chance I'll raise here. It really depends on what range of hands I think SB will lead the turn with.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm raising here most of the time too. And, I think the raise is definitely for value. A flush draw is the only realy hand that a bet doesn't protect. AQ,KQ have 3 outs, so raising is definitely for value against these. AK would be the only overcard hand getting good enough pot odds, and you're way ahead any smaller pairs (hands like 99-77 will often call this down, making a raise very profitable against these hands).

To add, the hand in SSH where Ed Miller suggests waiting for the turn was a TT hand, where you are vulnerable to overcards/draws AND you have very few outs. In this hand, it's probably safe to say you have 4.5 outs, and there's only really a flush draw, plus you have many hands almost drawing dead (99-22, smaller J, AQ,KQ). This is a clear raise IMHO.

Entity

03-18-2005, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A flush draw is the only realy hand that a bet doesn't protect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? A raise doesn't protect here against anything.

Isura

03-18-2005, 02:26 PM

I guess "protect" was the wrong word. I was stressing the raise is for value against anyone with 3 or less outs (AQ,KQ, smaller pocket pairs).

davelin

03-18-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It protects against anyone with 3 or less outs (AQ,KQ, smaller pocket pairs). And as I explained, you'll get paid off against these hands on later streets too.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first bet was protection enough against them, I don't know if there's a concept of "double-protection". If they'll pay off later, why not go for the call two on the bigger street than the flop?

Note, I'm not advocating just a call here, but there are reasons to contemplate one.

Chris_P

03-18-2005, 02:54 PM

raise, its probable hes raising to get a free-card later on with his flush draw or something,

raise until a club hits

@bsolute_luck

03-18-2005, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
raise, its probable hes raising to get a free-card later on with his flush draw or something,

raise until a club hits

[/ QUOTE ]

how is he raising to get a free card when he is first to act?

this just sounds like a topic you could debate forever. right now for me, by raising i run the risk of the SB reraising and facing the field to cold call. they fold and i lose just to gain 1 extra SB. while, yes they could fold the turn UI, i'm willing to take that chance for winning more BB than SB

it's up to you i guess. maybe when i know more, i'll change my mind...

LoaferGee12

03-18-2005, 07:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Read this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1851132&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1&vc=1) , maybe it will give you a new perspective on passive play, and when it can be used to your advantage.

In the original post, given Hero's relative position to the bettor and the rest of the field, a call will win you more money if your hand stands up. A raise will serve to isolate you against players who can beat you. Aggression is not always correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

That hand is completely different man. SB 3-bet PF in that hand so we were able to narrow his hands down to where we were either way ahead, way behind, or splitting. You don't want to show aggression if you are ahead, and you don't want to put in too many bets if you're behind. This hand has more people in and is not even close to way ahead / way behind.