Playing top-pair bad-kicker [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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coinflip

03-17-2005, 05:20 PM

First orbit at table, so no reads. Nice falmily pot though. Questions are mainly regarding the river, when a scary card hits after you've been betting all the way. Is a bet/fold better than a check/call in these spots, in general? And are both superior to a bet/call?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (7 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button folds.

Pretty coordinated board, and my hand is marginal. I debate checking to see the action behind me, but I decided being straightforward was best.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Once no one shows any aggression, I decide to bet the turn blank.

River: (9.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero folds.

A scary overcard that also completes a runner-runner flush. I debate checking and calling one, but I decide to go with bet/fold instead. Any comments? I figure it's an easy fold with a raise and so many overcalls.

[b]Final Pot: 16.50 BB

milesdyson

03-17-2005, 05:26 PM

I like to know who's in LP here. I'll check raise the flop if I know one of the late position players bets every flop. I just don't like betting OOP into 6 players, even with top pair.

Have to bet the turn, and folding the river was good. I seriously wonder what those two coldcalled with.

gasoltub

03-17-2005, 05:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like to know who's in LP here. I'll check raise the flop if I know one of the late position players bets every flop. I just don't like betting OOP into 6 players, even with top pair.

Have to bet the turn, and folding the river was good. I seriously wonder what those two coldcalled with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this pot (16.5BB) too small to call the river? I'm thinking of Ed Millers words: "Don't fold the river for one bet when the pot is large"

MrWookie47

03-17-2005, 05:38 PM

I think I like checking the river. Sure, it shows weakness, and someone may try to take a shot at you, but on the other hand, it could go bet-raise-3bet behind you and you'll be awfully glad you can throw this one away for no additional bets.

What to do after the checking depends on a lot of variables. If a bet comes from UTG and he gets no callers, calling is probably good getting 10.5:1. He may just be taking a stab when a scare card hits that often. However, with one or especially two callers, I think you're sunk and should toss it.

If the bet comes from MP1, however, this sounds fairly similar to the section in SSH about not wanting overcallers, and you should toss it. I'm not entirely sure, since that section describes a situation holding only AK high.

As you played it, I think you can pretty safely fold after you get a raiser and TWO people calling TWO bets cold.

I'm no expert, however, so I look forward to getting slapped around by a veteran.

Also, I think your flop and turn play are fine.

tiltaholic

03-17-2005, 05:42 PM

i think it was well played.
i like the flop and turn, and i think the river fold is ok too...though i'd probably not have the discipline to fold. then i'd tilt.

davelin

03-17-2005, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like to know who's in LP here. I'll check raise the flop if I know one of the late position players bets every flop. I just don't like betting OOP into 6 players, even with top pair.

Have to bet the turn, and folding the river was good. I seriously wonder what those two coldcalled with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this pot (16.5BB) too small to call the river? I'm thinking of Ed Millers words: "Don't fold the river for one bet when the pot is large"

[/ QUOTE ]

What Ed is trying to say is that call if you think you're good more than 1 in 16.5 times here, not to just arbitrarily throw one more bet in the river just because the pot is big. It's a pot-odds exercise that can be applied in any size pot.

Is Hero good in 1:16.5 times here? Hard to say but hard to believe he may be. His kicker isn't that strong, there is an overcard now, a flush draw was completed, another player declared strength and Hero now has to overcall.

Aaron W.

03-17-2005, 06:53 PM

I think betting the river here is not so good... At the river, everything looks pretty bad: Three opponents, the flush card came (although it was runner-runner flush, making it less scary), an overcard came, and a straight was completed. None of these on its own should scare Hero, but the combination of these really makes things really makes me nervous.

What weak hands are there that have been calling down will want to stay for one more? What hands just got stronger? I think the ratio of hands you beat that will call and hands that beat you that will call (or raise) has suddenly tipped against you. Also, you will find more hands that beat you checking through here because of the flush (Ax may not want to bet, better kings may not bet...). I think checking is a much better play.

I would have check-called one bet and check-folded for two or more bets (unless someone is atypically agressive). The bet-fold here looks okay with two cold-callers. If there were only one, I would have to do some thinking. And against none, I feel obliged to call.

coinflip

03-17-2005, 07:29 PM

I missed noticing that the A completes an OESD for JT, otherwise I'd have worried about that a bit more. I didn't weigh the idea of someone hanging around with a naked ace or hitting a runner-runner flush overly heavily, although the combination of all those factors made me pretty uncertain about my river line. I really find it hard to play hands where a big field of people just keep calling down, since there's very little information to use to put them on hands.

I found the actual hands pretty humorous; I guess I was in bad shape most of the hand. Guess UTG and UTG+1 were looking to slowplay their monsters? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (7 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (9.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

Results:
UTG has 4c 5c (two pair, fives and fours).
UTG+1 has Qs Kc (two pair, kings and queens).
MP1 has Ts Jc (straight, ace high).
Outcome: MP1 wins 16.50 BB.