Senate Approves Drilling in Alaska Refuge

[adios]

FYI, If my memory serves me correctly the majority of Alaskans favor opening up ANWR for drilling. I have reservations but admittedly I'm not that knowledgeable about how environmentally safe it is.

Senate Approves Drilling in Alaska Refuge (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050317/ap_on_go_co/arctic_drilling)

[Dead]

I favor it. It will create jobs, and jobs are more important than the environment.

[UOPokerPlayer]

Could destroy ecosystem. Caribou eat moss that will not grow once drilling begins, the radius is huge. Inuit natives who favor the drilling also hunt these Caribou for food. The hardcore liberals here like to compare this to us giving the Indians blankets with smallpox, the indians accepted the blankets and thanked us. Blankets good, smallpox worse. More fossil fuel used before we have to revert to alternate energy resources, also bad for the environment. At what point will people realize oil won't last forever? I think it will be a year where there's not an election within four years. I could be cynical though.

[UOPokerPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I favor it. It will create jobs, and jobs are more important than the environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't agree here, firstly, how long do these jobs last? I believe there are better ways to creat jobs than destroying the environment. I'm not a fanatic, but if we destroy the earth, money just doesn't have the same use. The jobs we're talking about creating will be those of a basic nature and won't last, this is a short term solution that won't solve anything. Secondly, I think if we can move to the point of not being held at the mercy of oil, (which is definitely a tall order), we can see a lot of our middle eastern ground go way up in battling radical muslim.

[Dead]

I agree that we should move away from oil, but I also agree that we should use the oil that we have in America first. Anything that keeps us less at the mercy of OPEC and their prices is a good thing.

[adios]

My understanding is that drilling at the nearby North Slope has not had any adverse environmental impact.

[slickpoppa]

I'm still waiting for Bush to officially anounce opening the twins for drilling.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
FYI, If my memory serves me correctly the majority of Alaskans favor opening up ANWR for drilling.

[/ QUOTE ] don't residents get a kick back every year because of drilling?

[andyfox]

I understand that, if approved, the drilling won't begin for at least ten years.

I'd be in favor of it if it were coupled with a serious investment in alternative energy. I remember when we all waited hours in line to pay ridiculously high prices (fifty cents a gallon) during the so-called oil embargo during the early '70s that we were going to get serious on oil self-sufficiency, conservation, and alternative energy sources. Here we are over thirty years later having done essentially nothing except drive SUVs.

I'm a liberal, but f*ck the caribou.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still waiting for Bush to officially anounce opening the twins for drilling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it just me or is Jenna bigger than usual? Think someone knocked the First Kid up?

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a liberal, but f*ck the caribou.

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] them up their stupid asses.

[Zeno]

It's all good. Now they need to open up more land in Alaska and also work on more offshore oil leases, especially near California.

We need to use up all the oil before Jesus gets back, because if we don't - He'll be really mad.

-Zeno

[Dead]

Are you on Svalbard? I saw your location.

[Six_of_One]

I can't understand why environmentalists continue to insist on banging their heads against an immovable wall.

Do they actually believe that they can somehow stop all accessible oil from eventually being extracted? All they're doing is fighting a losing battle to delay the inevitable. It's an incredible waste of resources.

The sooner the world's oil supply is depleted, the better off the environment will be, in the long run. True environmentalists should drive Hummers.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
The sooner the world's oil supply is depleted, the better off the environment will be, in the long run. True environmentalists should drive Hummers.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we burn off all of all of the easily reachable fossil fuels, we will be dead from CO2 poisoning.

Our oil supply is not going to drop gradually. It will most likely crash. That will be a disaster for both the environment, our economy, and civilization as a whole.

[cardcounter0]

It will be a disaster since drilling in Alaska is Bush's "Long Range Plan" and solution to the energy problem.
I guess Long Range for Bush means while he is still alive to collect profits.

The real shame is using such a valuable finite resource by burning it to power cars is so stupid. There are 100,000 better products and things that can be produced from petroleum. After we burn the last gallon of gas to go to the late night pizza shop, where are we going to get the raw materials for plastics, etc. ?

[lastchance]

I'm with wacki and Zeno on this one. They know what they're talking about.

[Six_of_One]

[ QUOTE ]
Our oil supply is not going to drop gradually. It will most likely crash. That will be a disaster for both the environment, our economy, and civilization as a whole.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain? I'm confused as to how the oil supply can go down in anything other than a gradual way...I mean, a certain amount of oil is used every year. Different amounts of reserves are located in different parts of the world...are you suggesting that all reserves will run out at roughly the same time?

[cardcounter0]

That's easy. Say you have a couple of bank accounts with $500 stashed in each one. You spend $100 a day. Now if you never reduce your spending, and have no other income, no matter how far apart those banks are, you are going to spend your last $100, and BOOM! - you are broke.

[EarlCat]

[ QUOTE ]
FYI, If my memory serves me correctly the majority of Alaskans favor opening up ANWR for drilling. I have reservations but admittedly I'm not that knowledgeable about how environmentally safe it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the people opposing it are picturing these enormous, dirty, 1920's-era oil fields. This isn't the case. The technology has improved so much that the environmental impact would be minimal. Directional drilling allows us to drill a very large area without destroying vast amounts of land. If ANWR was 12' x 12', the amount of surface area affected by drilling would be the size of a dime.

[BCPVP]

Jonah Goldberg goes into more detail about this after his trip up to ANWR.
National Review (http://www.nationalreview.com/flashback/goldberg200503180758.asp)

[bholdr]

...but not because of potential damage to the environment.

The projected benifits to opening up the ANWR to exploitation just don't justify the costs, IMO. The environmental damage will be very low-level- recent developments in drilling technology have all but eliminated the potential for large scale damage.

However, i think that any efforts to alow more explorationa and exploitation will make it less efficient and likely for alternitive energy sources to get the funding and attention that is needed to do the research and development to make those technologies cost-effective; That is, it would increse, not reduce, the nation's dependance on oil. I think it would be far more intelligent, long-term, to focus most or all of the nations energy development on such alternitive sources of power- wind, solar, biomass, tidal, geothermal, etc...

In order to maintain our nation's position in the world economy, energy independance is critical. In the coming century, those nations that make the transition from the oil powered econony to alternitive sources of power will be in a far more advantageous position than those that do not.

I suppose it won't hurt too much to open up ANWR, but it won't help much, either.

[Six_of_One]

Your analogy would make sense to me if all the oil in the world had already been drilled, and was sitting in barrels waiting to be used.

With oil, though, there will come a time in the future when the world's demand exceeds what can be produced in a given year. And, the amount that can be produced will gradually decrease, year by year. Unless I'm misunderstanding things, I don't think oil production will just suddenly end. The world's consumption will therefore be forced to decrease, but in a gradual fashion.

[cardcounter0]

The oil supply is finite. If it is drilled and in barrels, or still sitting in the ground, there isn't any new oil being made. There are no vast areas of undiscovered oil.

Consumption of oil is increasing. Wait until China kicks in and starts using its share.

The last drop of oil will be sold, and boom -- People will wonder why alternative sources weren't developed.

[Six_of_One]

Yes, the oil supply is finite. But, it can only be extracted from the earth a little at a time. In the future, the rate at which it is consumed will exceed the rate at which it can be extracted, especially because as supplies in the ground dwindle, they become increasingly difficult to extract.

At this point, world oil consumption will begin to decline. This will continue over a long period of time, until finally there is no usable oil remaining. Throughout this period of decreasing oil usage, alternative sources of energy must be developed, or else the economic ramifications will be severe.

By the time the last drop of oil is sold, it won't matter, because the world will either have moved on to something else, or will be so screwed up that oil will be the last thing on anyone's mind.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
After we burn the last gallon of gas to go to the late night pizza shop, where are we going to get the raw materials for plastics, etc. ?

[/ QUOTE ]

That problem is easily solved. Were not going to run out of materials to make plastics. They are just going to be more expensive and several times more damaging to the environment when we make them.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think oil production will just suddenly end. The world's consumption will therefore be forced to decrease, but in a gradual fashion.

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't. There is tons of oil around in the form of shale/tar sands. However this is extremely bad for the environment and the infrastructure takes a while to build up. Adios had a thread on the economic problems of this source and there have been many threads on why this is so bad for the environment. China is growing, when you have a quickly growing economy like China's and a steadily decreasing oil supply they will crash like two trains running into each other. At that point the price up fuel will skyrocket. It will still be around, but it will be very expensive and our economies will suffer.

[ QUOTE ]
By the time the last drop of oil is sold, it won't matter, because the world will either have moved on to something else, or will be so screwed up that oil will be the last thing on anyone's mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take it you haven't read any of my threads. This is what 99.9% of the scientific community are screaming. Unfortunatelly Nobel laureates don't have that much power in political circles. ITER, the internationl fusion project, has been on hold for the last 3 Years and 240 days.

http://fire.pppl.gov/

Politics sucks and it's going to screw us. I'm at the point where I'm about to stop caring. Zeno pretty much thinks that we might be beyond the point of no return. Richard Smalley, a very respected Nobel Laureate also has grim predictions for the future. I still think there is time, but if an Apollo sized energy program isn't started in 5-10 years, I will join Zeno's group.


http://smalley.rice.edu/

A must see video:
http://128.42.10.107/media/Smalley_OEF_20031101_300k.wmv
http://128.42.10.107/media/Smalley_OEF_20031101_100k.wmv


It's sad, energy is the worlds largest industry and nobody wants to invest in the technology.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
I will join Zeno's group.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know I had a group but I think it is a good idea. With a name like Wacki you will obviously be the drummer. I see Andy is in our newly formed group but since he is a Liberal he has to sing falsetto, I think he is also good on the piano. I'll be the lead singer. The name for this new group is obvious:

Le Misanthropes

We'll be an instant hit.

-Zeno

[Zeno]

On a more serious note you have to remember that humans move slowly and have a tremendous amount of inner inertia. So be patient. Things may not be as bleak as they seem. Don't you give up Wacki - Science needs enthusiastic and energetic individuals like you.

-Zeno

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know I had a group

[/ QUOTE ]

And I didn't know you had a sense of humor.

nh.

[Il_Mostro]

[ QUOTE ]
It won't. There is tons of oil around in the form of shale/tar sands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. And the target extraction rate is 5 million barrels per day in 2030 (canadian tar-sands). A fair bit away from the 80 mb/d we use today. The worlds consumption of oil will be forced to decrease.

[stanky]

ANWR movie (http://www.anwr.org/flash.htm)

[tolbiny]

you are right, the amount of oil in the world will steadily decrease untill there is none left. However the big crash that is being referred to is what will happen to the economies of the world when we hot the threashold of more oil being used than being produced.
Think of what happens when ever there is a major panic- people flock to the stores buying duck tape and plastic sheeting and canned food by the ton. This is what happens when there is a scare in oil production- tons of people head to the pump and fill up cars, and mowers and little red jugs as if the extra 20 gallons will carry them through their life. Now think of this on a larger scale- trucking companies unable to buy oil? Airlines? Shipping? If oil prices suddenly doubled in, say a months time tons of buisnesses would simply go out of buisness- the price of produce would jump- all of the basic nessecities that are being taken for granted would increase at huge rate at the same time that unemployment jumps into the double didgets. that's it, its good night for our country as we know it. Food riots, electricity shortages, i mean how much feul does our military consume each day?

Only the Amish will survive.