2 turn decisions....maybe standard. [Archive]

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MAxx

03-17-2005, 01:22 AM

Feel free to comment on the Pf decisions, but I would prefer if you don't put much focus on that. I am pretty comfortable with the pf raises.

Hand One:

Slight reads: Limper is loose passive, and BB is loose as well. I basically don't respect either's play all that much.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, CO bets, Hero calls, BB raises, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB bets, CO calls, Hero raises, BB calls, CO calls.

River: (12.20 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.20 BB

Hand 2:

Slight reads. SB and BB both pretty loose and at least a little more aggressive than avg.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB raises, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls $4.50 (All-In).

Turn: (9.95 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
SB bets, BB raises, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (15.95 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 18.95 BB

helpmeout

03-17-2005, 01:30 AM

1. I raise the flop

2. 66 UTG yuck

Calling a raise with a weak overpair and an OESD , yuck, have to 3bet that flop.

cartman

03-17-2005, 02:18 AM

Hand 1.
I definitely raise the flop to drive out the BB. I think I am very likely in front of the CO. If I didn't raise the flop, I would play the rest of the hand like you did.

Hand 2.
I 3-bet the flop. You very likely have either the best hand or the best draw. If I didn't 3-bet the flop, I would 3-bet the turn. Then only if it got capped on the turn or if a heart or a 6 hit the river would I check the river. They have no idea you have a 6, so the monkey in the BB may very well be raising with just an A. I think to concede that either of them has a flush is seeing monsters under the bed.

Cartman

Alobar

03-17-2005, 03:03 AM

hand 1

raise the flop (pf this is my standard play against most limpers)

hand 2 (I dont raise this PF) I prolly 3 bet the flop, but the way you played it I play the turn and river exactly the same, it could be an ace, but it also could be a 6 or the flush, if it were HU I'd prolly find the raise button one more time, but here youve got the opportunity to bring the SB along so you lose less and win the same (or more if its a chop)

theRealMacoy

03-17-2005, 03:46 AM

1. I would raise the flop, given you follow the initial raiser. This will put pressure on anyone with a single diamond.

2. I agree with your line.
With the SB 3 betting pre-flop and then check-raising I might put him on a mid-high pair or two high cards. A higher pair puts you in a difficult position unless you hit your straight. I like your bet-call on the flop. Three betting isn't likely to fold a draw at this point. I don't put the SB on a flush but the BB? Thus I call as well, as a raise isn't going to fold the SB.

Cheers,
the Real Macoy

DrGutshot

03-17-2005, 04:03 AM

raise the flop in #1. I know it wont punish diamonds badly, but if you were planning on raising a non-dangerous turn, it would suck to be 3bet. Raising the flop will help you gauge where you stand.

-DrG

MAxx

03-17-2005, 10:27 AM

Hand 2, is it wrong to put SB on a pocket pair greater than 66? I was thinking it was pretty likely. my thinking at the time was that I would play my hand as an OPESD with a possible slight bump for spiking a six. as far as getting rid of BB, he called 2 pf. on the flop, i bet into pf 3better and homeboy called 2 more cold. i didn't think 3 betting the flop would do me much good. i didn't think it would make BB go away based on his prior actions, and I didnt see much reason to pump the pot with only 2 opponents.

when i hit my straight on the turn, i was planning on raising... but i thought BB's wakeing up looked like a flush or a straight. my thoughts were to fold or coldcall. i coldcalled b/c i thought it would be rediculously weak to fold here (not to mention the size of the pot), and i figured it would be best to go for the SB overcalls in the event that i was either splitting or drawing dead- which would also mimimize any futher damage in the case i am dead in the water.

anyone got further thoughts on my thoughs?

J.R.

03-17-2005, 10:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
and i figured it would be best to go for the SB overcalls in the event that i was either splitting or drawing dead- which would also mimimize any futher damage in the case i am dead in the water.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this sounds more like a river than a turn thought process- w/ 3 hearts sans one yourself I 3-bet with a street to come, especially as any A (possible for the loose coldcaller) has the straight.

MAxx

03-17-2005, 10:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop in #1. I know it wont punish diamonds badly, but if you were planning on raising a non-dangerous turn, it would suck to be 3bet. Raising the flop will help you gauge where you stand.

-DrG

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1:

I was thinking that I wanted to make it easy on myself to exit in the case of turned diamond. If one of these cards appeared on the turn and there was some action, I would have likely folded. On nonthreatening turn cards I was planning on calling. Only on improving non-diamond (of which were few), was I considering raising. When BB c/r'd, I felt the heat more.

I hear you all on raising flop, and I think the most important reason, in addition to likely being currently ahead, is to find out where I stand like some of you have stated.

MAxx

03-17-2005, 10:57 AM

i rarely would have missed the fact that an ace has a straigtht, dammit... but i did here. i think i was too preocupied in my flush fears to pick it up here. if i had picked up on this like i should have, i would auto three bet this turn. it sounds like i should even if i knew nobody had an ace.

on a side note, what is the reason why going for overcalls beginning with the turn is incorrect and that it only a river process? is it because you have to protect or get your chips in with the best of it, and the river can change the situation so much, that you cannot start make this type of decision yet?

7ontheline

03-17-2005, 11:43 AM

Hand 1:

Isn't this a case where you can't protect your hand with a flop raise? If you raise the flop, that puts 9.4 SB out there and any flush draw has odds to call, particularly the Ace. I would also wait until the turn to raise any non-diamond, non-A/K. Of course, your plans are foiled by the BB's checkraise. If he just calls, there are 4.7 BB in the pot to start the turn and a raise now doesn't give flush draws proper odds.

danng721

03-17-2005, 12:53 PM

You raise the flop to kick out gutshots that may call for 1 bet.

cartman

03-17-2005, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise the flop, that puts 9.4 SB out there and any flush draw has odds to call....

[/ QUOTE ]

That is true, but "any flush draw" is not going to call 2 cold. If the BB has only a small lone diamond for instance, your raise should drive him out. Chances are you are in front of the flop bettor and, IMO, therefore you should try to get heads up with him.

Cartman

7ontheline

03-17-2005, 01:15 PM

Maybe you can drive out a small diamond with a raise on the flop, but the board is pretty coordinated - a lot of hands will have a piece of it or some sort of draw and if the BB is loose he may not fold for 2 bets. He definitely won't if he has a high diamond. Realistically, I would probably raise this flop while I was multitabling - I don't think it's very wrong either way. Hindsight affords us the luxury of more careful consideration - I could just be overthinking it though.

MAxx

03-17-2005, 02:03 PM

Hand One.

CO and BB both show T7s for lesser 2pairs, and my Top 2 were good.

Hand 2:

SB show the AA for the lower straight.
BB shows KT /images/graemlins/heart.gifs and therefore MHING

djoyce003

03-17-2005, 03:03 PM

Hand 1, i'd play the same way, nice hand.

Hand 2, I find a raise in here, most likely the turn. I don't think anyone has a made flush. I would put BB on the lone ace of hearts, he has the ass end of a straight and a nut flush draw....you've got to raise here...everyone with a heart is calling.

helpmeout

03-17-2005, 06:39 PM

You raise to knockout any 2 or 7 so if you hit your 6 you are good. If SB has something like AKs then you want to knock others out so that you can win unimproved.

You also have the option of taking a freecard on the turn.

Going for overcalls on the turn and river is standard.