KQo Line Check

[Malachii]

Commerce 1/2$

Hero is UTG with K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero limps
5 callers
SB completes
BB checks (7 small bets)

Flop is Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, MP1 and 2 call (5.5 big bets)
Turn is 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
BB bets, Hero raises, MP 1 and 2 call, BB folds.

River is 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 raises, Hero folds.

Thoughts/comments?

[milesdyson]

Raise preflop, especially at that game. You'll get called by Kx, Qx, offsuit one or two gappers, etc. Take advantage of CA's live poker looseness.

Otherwise, why are you not raising this flop?

[Firefly]

Raise preflop. Raise the flop. You have the best hand, now start building le pot, trust me, they will call

[Duerig]

I'd bet-call this river also. Probably fold if it's 2 back to me.

[davelin]

Wow,

Raise pre-flop
Raise flop
Bet/call river

[Duerig]

If the flop had been QQ4, rainbow, how would you feel about hero waiting until the turn to raise?

[milesdyson]

Nevermind some of my first paragraph - there are no gutshots on a QQ4 board, but I would still raise.

What is calling the flop and raising the turn doing? Giving gutshots better reason to call this flop, only charging flush draws 1 SB to draw on us, and letting people call 1 SB with pocket pairs that they would call for two.

Let them make bad calls on the flop. When you call and raise the turn, they won't make such bad calls. I'll speak for southern California by saying that the low limit hold'em players at these tables are much worse than your average Party .50/1 guy. The VPIP here is probably around 60%. It's where 6-8 people seeing flops on average actually happens.

[Duerig]

EDIT: Just saw your edit. Thanks.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is calling the flop and raising the turn doing? Giving gutshots better reason to call this flop, only charging flush draws 1 SB to draw on us, and letting people call 1 SB with pocket pairs that they would call for two.

Let them make bad calls on the flop. When you call and raise the turn, they won't make such bad calls. I'll speak for southern California by saying that the low limit hold'em players at these tables are much worse than your average Party .50/1 guy. The VPIP here is probably around 60%. It's where 6-8 people seeing flops on average actually happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I was trying to ask if waiting until the turn to raise is a bad idea on a ragged flop. If the flop came QQ4 rainbow, there are no possible gutshot or flush draws (besides a backdoor I guess). In this case, is it still a bad idea to wait (for the reasons you mentioned)?

[/ QUOTE ]
At these tables it is. A lot of players will coldcall two all day on the flop, but won't call two cold on the turn. Also there's a chance you're not bet into again on the turn. I'm not calling this flop unless there's an auto-raiser type of a player behind me who I'm sure will "raise it up."

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
If the flop had been QQ4, rainbow, how would you feel about hero waiting until the turn to raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not a huge difference either way. I'd probably still raise.

[Duerig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is calling the flop and raising the turn doing? Giving gutshots better reason to call this flop, only charging flush draws 1 SB to draw on us, and letting people call 1 SB with pocket pairs that they would call for two.

Let them make bad calls on the flop. When you call and raise the turn, they won't make such bad calls. I'll speak for southern California by saying that the low limit hold'em players at these tables are much worse than your average Party .50/1 guy. The VPIP here is probably around 60%. It's where 6-8 people seeing flops on average actually happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I was trying to ask if waiting until the turn to raise is a bad idea on a ragged flop. If the flop came QQ4 rainbow, there are no possible gutshot or flush draws (besides a backdoor I guess). In this case, is it still a bad idea to wait (for the reasons you mentioned)?

[/ QUOTE ]
At these tables it is. A lot of players will coldcall two all day on the flop, but won't call two cold on the turn. Also there's a chance you're not bet into again on the turn. I'm not calling this flop unless there's an auto-raiser type of a player behind me who I'm sure will "raise it up."

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points. Thanks for the comments.

[Shillx]

Raise preflop.

Play this elosh fast on the flop. No one will believe that you have trips when you pop the flop. You will get max rewards playing this then the fishy call flop/raise turn line that bad players use.

Brad

[Malachii]

Let me start by saying thank you for the posts. I appreciate them.

Let me explain the justification for my postflop play (specifically, not raising on the flop.)

There were 7 small bets preflop.

One of the blinds came out raising. Assume I raise.

Now, think about this from the MP1's perspective (even though I know he wasn't thinking along these lines, he would probably call anyway.)

Bet + raise means it costs him 2 small bets. There are now 10 small bets in the pot (7+1+2.)

2 small bets to win 10 = 5 - 1 odds, meaning they are theoretically taking money from me because they only need 4.1-1 pot odds with a 9 out draw. (Less, if you consider implied odds.)

Meanwhile, assume the big blind checks to the me on the next card since I raised. I bet out. (1 big bet to win a 7 big bet pot.) Again, they are theoretically winning money from me. Infact, calling with a flush draw in this situation is very profitable.

Now, let's look at the math assuming I play it like I did.

I merely call the bet preflop, both the chasers call behind me. They're getting 8-1 and 9-1 odds respectively. (4.5 big bets.)

Now, on the turn when the spade doesn't come, the SB bets and I raise. It now costs them 2 big bets to win 6.5 big bets. I'm giving them 3.25-1 pot odds on a 4.1-1 draw with one card to come. Calling is theoretically an error on their part. By calling in this situation, they are giving me money. Also, the board was somewhat coordinated, with both straight and flush draws. By calling, I could get away from the hand relatively cheaply if a bad card came, and induce an error from them if a good card came. I considered the turn card a mediocre one. Yes, there is a straight, but I think I could safely fold it if it got reraised behind me.

Now, I know that by calling the flop I'm giving them ridiculous odds to draw me out for one card. However, I'm only giving them one card to run me down, not two. Yes, I did end up losing the pot when they caught their flushes (they were both drawing to the spades, incidentally) but I believe that my approach has some merit. I'm not protecting my hand from gutshots and weak draws... but only for one card. In effect, I give them one card to beat me, and then force them to make the error. I am not sure that this is necessarily the correct approach, but I believe it deserves to be looked at instead of simply saying "Raise, you have to protect your hand" without examining the odds you're giving your opponents.

[Malachii]

Note: I miscounted the number of bets in the pot. On the turn it's 3.75-1 instead of 3.25-1. Doesn't really matter, but I thought I'd post it.

[caggin]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, on the turn when the spade doesn't come, the SB bets and I raise. It now costs them 2 big bets to win 6.5 big bets. I'm giving them 3.25-1 pot odds on a 4.1-1 draw with one card to come. Calling is theoretically an error on their part...By calling, I could get away from the hand relatively cheaply if a bad card came, and induce an error from them if a good card came. I considered the turn card a mediocre one. Yes, there is a straight, but I think I could safely fold it if it got reraised behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I see it, you aren't raising to protect on this hand, you're raising for value. You have the best hand and you want to get as much money into that pot as possible. You aren't going to get a flush draw to fold. Not on the flop (a flush draw actually should raise the flop), and not on the turn. And they are correct to call, in both instances (using implied odds on the turn). You and the guy with the best flush draw are both "making money". Everyone else is just contributing. (You are making more than him with every bet that goes in the pot since your hand will hold up more often than a flush card will come in, plus you may fill up to a boat.) You can't "get away from the hand cheaply" on the turn if a bad card comes, because you will still have 10 outs to the full house.

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet + raise means it costs him 2 small bets. There are now 10 small bets in the pot (7+1+2.)

2 small bets to win 10 = 5 - 1 odds, meaning they are theoretically taking money from me because they only need 4.1-1 pot odds with a 9 out draw. (Less, if you consider implied odds.)

Meanwhile, assume the big blind checks to the me on the next card since I raised. I bet out. (1 big bet to win a 7 big bet pot.) Again, they are theoretically winning money from me. Infact, calling with a flush draw in this situation is very profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're misapplying some concepts here. It frankly doesn't matter how many bets they have to call on the flop or the turn, if they are on flush draws they are always going to be correct to call. You should be raising because you have the best hand here, and force draws to pay out if they miss.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, let's look at the math assuming I play it like I did.

I merely call the bet preflop, both the chasers call behind me. They're getting 8-1 and 9-1 odds respectively. (4.5 big bets.)

Now, on the turn when the spade doesn't come, the SB bets and I raise. It now costs them 2 big bets to win 6.5 big bets. I'm giving them 3.25-1 pot odds on a 4.1-1 draw with one card to come. Calling is theoretically an error on their part. By calling in this situation, they are giving me money. Also, the board was somewhat coordinated, with both straight and flush draws. By calling, I could get away from the hand relatively cheaply if a bad card came, and induce an error from them if a good card came. I considered the turn card a mediocre one. Yes, there is a straight, but I think I could safely fold it if it got reraised behind me.

Now, I know that by calling the flop I'm giving them ridiculous odds to draw me out for one card. However, I'm only giving them one card to run me down, not two. Yes, I did end up losing the pot when they caught their flushes (they were both drawing to the spades, incidentally) but I believe that my approach has some merit. I'm not protecting my hand from gutshots and weak draws... but only for one card. In effect, I give them one card to beat me, and then force them to make the error. I am not sure that this is necessarily the correct approach, but I believe it deserves to be looked at instead of simply saying "Raise, you have to protect your hand" without examining the odds you're giving your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I see a gross misapplication of concepts here. Your turn raise will scream slowplayed trips at this point to any thinking players (which obviously these guys are not), and once again anyone with a flush draw will still have correct odds to call taking into account implied odds on the river. You can't just ignore implied odds in this case and not the previous one. They are still there for your opponents. Of course you have implied odds too if you happen to fill up on a K /images/graemlins/spade.gif or 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Once again, if I had a nut flush draw, I would be jamming this pot as much as I could, sensing trips from someone. The fact that MP1 and MP2 never raised their flush draws means that they are bad players, not that your play induced them into bad play.

Remember, if someone is on a flush draw you will never chase them off it, as it is almost always correct at these limits to play flush draws to the river, especially if you have a nut draw. This is more important to keep in mind than the specific pot odds you are giving your opponents on each card. I guarantee you they are not thinking about that.

[SCfuji]

just go nuts from the flop. and if this is a loose table (im assuming it is since its live 1/2) then raise preflop.

[dkernler]

First - you may want to include some of this analysis right away. You'll tend to get more responses if you show some thought in the original post. (Though apparently this was interesting enough to get a good number of responses anyway!)

As far as your analysis - it was mentioned by another poster that you shouldn't be raising to protect here. Not only do you have the best hand right now, you have huge equity - more than the flush draw. So unlike when you just have top pair against a flush draw, the flush draw is not making more money off of you from every bet you put in.

As you mentioned, it's a draw-heavy board. You have a great hand, so play it fast. No straight draws or flush draws are going to leave anyway. Get the money in now.

I hope that makes sense.