KQs BB - Aces Flop

[chucksim]

Villian has been raising with a number of hands, including small PP's. How do you play this one? Should I raise the flop? Is check/calling down a valid option?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

[LoaferGee12]

I'm check/folding this flop unless this guy is a maniac. There really aren't many hands you beat after this flop that he would raise with.

[milesdyson]

What's his PFR%? Do you know? How many outs do you give yourself on the flop?

To what degree do you think he's betting the flop and turn with a low pair? Does he raise any pocket pair preflop and bet the flop and turn, usually? If so, you should bet this river, because he'll call a bet with that pocket pair thinking that you're bluffing. Now, if he'd usually bet the river again (or bluff raise a river bet) with his pocket pair, I like just check calling.

edit: I think your read is results-oriented, btw, and it has swayed my advice.

[R_Brite_TDX]

Overall I think you played the hand to lose the least amount of money and I can't say I blame you because those aces are pretty scary and since he raised from early position it sure looks like he could have the ace. I might try a check raise on the turn to really find out where you are at. I think alot of low limit players slow play often when they flop a big hand. If he had an ace I don't see why he would want to lead out on the flop. I think if he had an ace than he would want as many people to stay in the hand as possible. So again I think maybe a check raise on the turn is a possibility but I certainly would not frown upon your conservative play here.
I am new here and I beleive this is my first post so take my advice with a grain of salt.

-Brian

[NateDog]

Check/fold the flop. Even if villain has only a small PP, you are drawing to 6 outs. If he has an A, you need runner/runner. If you'd only posted the PF and flop play, you might get more/better responses.

Nate

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
Overall I think you played the hand to lose the least amount of money and I can't say I blame you because those aces are pretty scary and since he raised from early position it sure looks like he could have the ace. I might try a check raise on the turn to really find out where you are at. I think alot of low limit players slow play often when they flop a big hand. If he had an ace I don't see why he would want to lead out on the flop. I think if he had an ace than he would want as many people to stay in the hand as possible. So again I think maybe a check raise on the turn is a possibility but I certainly would not frown upon your conservative play here.
I am new here and I beleive this is my first post so take my advice with a grain of salt.

-Brian

[/ QUOTE ]
Villain has to bet here. If I raise pf and I'm checked to with this board, I'm betting, Ace or not. I might get c/r'd here or on the turn, but I'm betting. (as the villain)

[Shillx]

Just bet the flop if you are going to continue in this pot. Your flop check/call and your turn/river play don't add up here. You certainly can't call the flop intending to play the rest of the hand this way. You need to a take a stab at this pot on the turn (either by betting or check/raising) if you are going to call the flop with no pair/no draw.

Brad

[elbuddha]

[ QUOTE ]
Just bet the flop if you are going to continue in this pot. Your flop check/call and your turn/river play don't add up here. You certainly can't call the flop intending to play the rest of the hand this way. You need to a take a stab at this pot on the turn (either by betting or check/raising) if you are going to call the flop with no pair/no draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
Forgive me, but I think leading this flop is insane.

Villian's flop bet may mean he has an Ace - but given Hero's read, there are a lot of non-A hands he could be betting here as well.

Any A hand from the other opponents would overcall or raise. But once it is folded to Hero, it is heads-up, closing the action at 10:1. If there had been overcalls behind Villian a fold would be clear. But again, given the read and no overcallers, all 6 of Hero's outs may be live, or at least enough to call at 10:1.

As for the turn, Hero hit one of his outs - but he is still way ahead or way behind. Betting or checkraising the turn would probably cost profits when ahead or lose more money when behind.

A case could be made for leading the river.

[SCfuji]

i agree. the only reason to check this flop would be with
the intention of check raising to push the villain off one of the hands that he raises with lightly preflop. betting is better than check calling and check raising is a comparable option. if he raises your flop bet or 3-bets your check raise then i would fold instantly. a lot of players love to bet at paired boards with pocket pairs in their hand. it is so blatantly obvious at what they hold.

[Buckmulligan]

I would check check raise this flop if I had your read on UTG. Then bet out the turn. Actually, I would check with the intention of folding unless it is folded back to me after a UTG bet, in which case I would raise.

[chucksim]

Well, my thinking with the two aces flopping was that he was raising with a smaller PP, as he has done before. That said I figured I was drawing to 6 outs, plus the BD flush draw, so I took a stab as it seemed I had odds for a call.

Obviously I'm not happy the way I played it at all. I've gone through all the options and I'm still not sure what I should have done:
<ul type="square">My weak-tightedness says check-fold the flop, but it looked like I had odds for a call (assuming no A, so I know that's close).

If I lead the flop, I'll likely get raised, even against a small PP. Now where am I? [/list]
In retrospect, check-calling the flop and leading the turn might have been good, as it might have been the best way to represent the A, especially since I hit an assumed out.

Obviously, I was folding the turn without a club, K or Q. My main question with all of this is that I know if I'm going to continue, I need to be more aggressive somewhere.

Assuming I'm continuing on the flop (whether that decision is good or bad) where is the best spot to get moving?

[Reqtech]

Since MP2 and SB folded, I would checkraise and open on the turn given your read.

If either of them had called the flop bet, I would've folded.

[SCfuji]

hey chuck,

its obvious that you have an interest in this pot. after you check and the other players drop out and the pot is heads-up you need to be aggressive. if you plan on calling a bet, be the one betting. and if your read on the villain is accurate and he could have a pair as low as 44 here, i will fire every single street even if i miss.

[elbuddha]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree. the only reason to check this flop would be with
the intention of check raising to push the villain off one of the hands that he raises with lightly preflop. betting is better than check calling and check raising is a comparable option. if he raises your flop bet or 3-bets your check raise then i would fold instantly. a lot of players love to bet at paired boards with pocket pairs in their hand. it is so blatantly obvious at what they hold.

[/ QUOTE ]
What am I missing? All the "lead the flop" advice might make sense to me if it were already heads-up, but its not. Doesn't the presence of the two other callers affect our line? We can try to push the PFR off a light raising hand, but we aren't going to push off one of the other two from an A. Once they fold though, everything changes.

[SCfuji]

you bring up a good point, but one way or another the other two people will be reacting to the villain's flop action whether we bet or not. so you might argue the point that checking benefits hero more so he can see the action playout on the flop. but then, i might argue that betting this flop will put pressure on the villain as he still has two other people behind him to act who "might" have aces. i think there are pros to both checking and betting this flop, but all im trying to say is that at some point by the turn hero should have taken the lead in this hand.