I am such a fish

[1C5]

Man I felt lost here, I need some help with this hand.

Can you please tell me all the mistakes and bad plays I made here...lay it on me.

1. He raises. How was my reraise?
2. My bet after the flop. My (next to non) thinking was to bet to see where I stand, thought he might fold if he had a PP or QQ maybe.
3. My call of his all in. By now I am lost. Is he bluffing? I made the bet to see where I stand, then I call the all in after he tells me he has something?

What do you do here? Simply check when the A flopped and get out of the hand with some chips left?

Thanks!

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t1880)
CO (t1235)
Button (t1500)
Hero (t1255)
BB (t1240)
UTG (t890)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to t175</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t350</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls t175.

Flop: (t750) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t250</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to t1530 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t655 (All-In).

Turn: (t3185) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t3185) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t3185

[curtains]

Riase more preflop....go to about 450-500 at least.

[1C5]

And what about after the A hits on the flop? A raise of that much would leave me committed no matter what the flop right?

[curtains]

Basically yeah, but also cuts down on his odds preflop with hands like Ax. You want action with your KK, but you don't want to make it ridiculously cheap for him.

[curtains]

Note that if you play KK like this agfainst someone with an ace, they are getting the proper implied odds to call you preflop and take all your money if an ace comes. You don't want to give them the right odds to do that.

[1C5]

Ok, so bigger raise next time and then all in on the flop even if an A hits?

[johnnybeef]

you need to fold after the flop raise. i know it is difficult, but it is something that you will have to learn how to do.

[Pepsquad]

Curtains,

I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment. I haven't done the math (probably my first mistake) but I find it hard to believe he's pricing in any ace by making it ~350 to go. If he's gonna re-pop it to 500, just push. It's an auto-push post-flop anyway so give yourself FE.
I think pre-flop was played perfectly. Fold the flop. I mean, that's the reason you didn't raise more right? So you could get away from an A high flop? Well, then the Ace comes, and you ignore your own intuition. FWIW 1C5, I think the reason this hand is confusing you so much is because you tried playing the best of both worlds. You wanted to be conservative AND aggressive. The two can't go hand in hand. You either re-raise like you did to give yourself an escape when an Ace hits, or you pot-commit yourself pre-flop. But min-re-raising and then NOT bailing on this hand is what has left you feeling yucky I think.

Pep.

[Eder]

Cowboys lose to flops with an A and action back to you...the best players can do a hellmuth and bail , but I agree with the guy to repop preflop at least 500 here...the crying call is hard to resist, but I'm sure you knew you were beat

[lastchance]

I'd just push over the reraise. On the flop, it's push/fold, on the likelihood of him having an ace.

[curtains]

He is pricing in an ace by making it 350! There is about 600 in the pot, it costs the ace 175 to call, and he wins all his chips if an ace flops!

[curtains]

by the way - pushing preflop is fine too. Although I prefer 500 over 350.

[Mr_J]

I don't like reraising. I push back at him preflop. If he calls a large reraise, chances are he'll call a push. He may be just as likely to call a push since it could look like you are stealing.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

He is pricing in an ace by making it 350! There is about 600 in the pot, it costs the ace 175 to call, and he wins all his chips if an ace flops!

[/ QUOTE ]

The small raise only prices in an Ace if Hero is unwilling to check/fold an Ace flop. Pepsquad is saying that the small raise allows Hero to do just that (quite lucidly, in my opinion, so I'm not sure why you are essentially ignoring his point). The problem with this line, seems to me, is that while it prices out an Ace, it prices in an underpair willing to bluff an Ace-high flop. So, actually I like your plan of reraising to 450-500 better. Actually, at the $20s anyway, I like a push best.

[curtains]

You cant check fold an ace high flop, there are too many non ace hands that will call you preflop. If you do this I think you're giving up too much.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

You cant check fold an ace high flop, there are too many non ace hands that will call you preflop. If you do this I think you're giving up too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but even if you bet the flop and fold to a raise, the Ace is still not getting enough implied odds. You think he can't even fold to a raise on the flop?

[curtains]

He will be basically pot committed after betting the flop.

[curtains]

btw maybe it's fine to fold the flop here, but your 250 chip bet could invite a move. Also your opponent could have a flush draw or just decide his 99 is good.

I just think it's poor poker to play KK this carefully. You shouldn't be scared of an ace flopping, you should be trying to build a big pot. I don't like charging your opponent just 175 more in a 600 chip pot

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]

You cant check fold an ace high flop, there are too many non ace hands that will call you preflop. If you do this I think you're giving up too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I think you are overestimating the non-ace hands that will re-pop it to ~450 pre-flop AND be willing to ignore that ace on the flop.

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't be scared of an ace flopping, you should be trying to build a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like charging your opponent just 175 more in a 600 chip pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[FishBurger]

I push allin preflop, especially if this is a $22 or $33. You'll get called plenty with AQ or AK and lower pocket pairs.

I dont like any kind of reraise here that is less than allin because you are committing too much of your stack. I also like the push allin preflop because your opponent is likely to miss the flop and you won't get any more action. Push it allin and pick up those 250 chips already in the pot and maybe most of your opponents stack.

[Elektrik]

Keep in mind that the standard play in this situation, if you had a hand you wanted to play, is to push, so you're effectively slowplaying your KK here.

You have one clear objective in mind: You are slowplaying this preflop is so that I can intice them to make a mistake they might not have made otherwise preflop, and set them all in on the flop. The thought "maybe I can keep this pot small so I can get away from this hand" should not be running through your head, instead think "how can I extract the most from my opponent?" If you think they'll call a push, by all means push. I personally like making it 500 or so.

However, a minraise here isn't your best option. Why? Well, your opponent's getting decent odds to call with his cards, and suddenly you have room to fold on this flop - you should never have given yourself that room in the first place, and you've put yourself in a very tough spot. Pot commit yourself preflop - you should never be able to get away from this hand.

[superbrawl]

I strongly agree that a more than mini raise is in order preflop.

I strongly disagree that he could not get away from this hand post flop when the A fell.

[curtains]

You can't get away from the ace if you play the hand properly, and raise a reasonable amount of money preflop. MAYBE in this case you can, although I'd be very unhappy about it.

[Degen]

its quite simple

a. go all-in pre

if you ignore a then...
b. don't bet the flop or if you do, bet much less
c. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU CALL THAT ALL-IN...THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE WORST CALL I CAN IMAGINE!!!! The title of your posts is very, very accurate w/ regard to this call.


Degen

[AnyTwoCanLose]

If you are playing a player that's likely to bet at a checked pot... maybe a fold is not in order. It probably still is.

With KK you should get in as much money as your opponent will put in. Not only do you not want to give him odds to catch something, but you don't want to let him fold when his KQ doesn't pair.

Make him decide preflop. You know what you'll have. He might not know.

If you aren't going to play KK strong, what will you play strong?

If your KK runs into AA, that's poker... you can't avoid some gamble sometimes.

Consider your own play... I get the sense you are tight (which is better than loose)... but a good player playing a tight player is going to bet a scare card that's checked to him.

Don't put yourself in such a bad position after the flop. Let him decide what to do with his A-10 preflop.