Big draw out of position, how to go about this

[Prevaricator]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($2609.5)
Hero ($2677.09)
MP ($1332)
CO ($1094)
Button ($870)
SB ($970)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $5.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $35</font>, MP calls $35, CO calls $35, Button calls $35, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($155) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $125</font>, MP folds, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $375</font>, Hero calls $2517.09 (All-In), Button calls $460 (All-In).

Is this a valid line? His raise just about always means strength, at least QJ I'd say. But I can't back out now, and calling puts me a bad sitation on the turn right?

[Kaz The Original]

Seems pretty default to me.

[mgsimpleton]

if you're SURE his raise means 2 pair or better i think you can lay it down since you have 12 outs minus redraws and as such i don't think the odds work out, but i didn't check it...

if you have any doubt and it may be like AQ or something and maybe your K is good then i think the play is standard.

[youngin20]

I dont like the push...but i guess you are in a crappy position. So...you have spade outs, plus three tens...wouldnt it be sweet if he was on a spade/straight draw as well? He actually might be, because he has position, could be raising for a free card, and just gets the odds to call anyway So you could be WAAAY ahead actually...results?

[mgsimpleton]

that's a big raise for a free card, isn't it?

[GimmeDaWatch]

I believe the odds DO work out as you're paying about $710 to win $1100 and change. Of course, its more or less a coinflip situation, unless he's got a set, which you dont love but you gotta call here.

[RainFall]

Yeah i shove here as well.

[theBruiser500]

i would check the flop and outpaly them

[Dr. Strangelove]

I think you're a bit too deep here, unless top two folds and bottom set thinks about it. I would probably call and see what the turn brings, if you miss and the button bets big so be it. You'll have the nuts on the turn ~21% of the time, ~2200 behind, and you are almost getting the pure odds to call anyway.

[aggie]

This is a crappy situation to be in but I don’t think there is a better way to play this pot (possibly checkraise the flop?)…..Once you lead out and get reraised, moving all in is you’re only valid option.

[Prevaricator]

[ QUOTE ]
i would check the flop and outpaly them

[/ QUOTE ]

is that a joke danny?

[theBruiser500]

no. if you bet then they raise and you call and you race it, that is okay but not good. if you bet and they call then turn comes and you miss what now? if you bet and they call and you hit on turn then you bet and they fold. check and see what develops

[Prevaricator]

So what happens if one person bets, do I raise or just call? If there's a bet and a bunch of calls then I think raising a lot is a good play.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
no. if you bet then they raise and you call and you race it, that is okay but not good. if you bet and they call then turn comes and you miss what now? if you bet and they call and you hit on turn then you bet and they fold. check and see what develops

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm bumping this to hopefully get more thoughts from you and others. I absolutely love your post.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say is right, but I think it's fantastic how it differs from the norm. Good stuff.

[soah]

I'm not sure that I agree with Bruiser on this.

If you check the flop, the stacks are too deep to checkraise all-in. Checkraising less than all-in is even worse. So you are basically looking to check and call. I think this is a case where if you are willing to call a bet, then you're better off just betting it yourself.

First of all, you were the preflop raiser. People expect you to bet most of the time, and they won't be able to put you on a hand nearly as accurately as if you check-call. And even with three opponents, you should be able to pick up the pot with a flop bet at least somewhat frequently. If it gets checked over to the button he may take a stab at the pot with a weak hand, even though he would have folded to your flop bet. (Like, he might have flopped second pair or something.) It always sucks to play a draw passively and then lose at showdown to a guy that had something like unimproved 33 and was just trying to buy the pot.

Secondly, if you bet the flop, get called, and whiff on the turn, you are in basically the same ackward position that you're in when you check-call the flop and miss on the turn. Whenever you have a draw out of position and miss on the turn you're going to be in a bad spot, regardless of the previous action.

Which brings up the third point, that if you bet and get raised, you can get all of your money in the pot with lots of nut outs and avoid dealing with bad turn cards. You may even be able to get a better hand to fold to your push. This doesn't have to happen very often to start making the play profitable.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
If you check the flop, the stacks are too deep to checkraise all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]THIS IS <font color="red">NO LIMIT </font> HOLDEM.

[Yeti]

I don't personally agree with it either and in hindsight I came over too gushing /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm just keen to hear more details.