When to let off with AK?

[og5]

This is one of those situations where I hate pot odds. I went to the river because the odds were there. I couldn't put CO on a hand because he just sat down, I was hoping he was calling down overcards like I was. Should I have just folded the flop, turn, river?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO (poster) 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
I was hoping he was calling down overcards like I was.

[/ QUOTE ]

with the difference being that he's not calling down, he's betting.

[og5]

Absolutely right /images/graemlins/smile.gif Though it's not uncommon at 1/2 for someone to do that. Fold anyway?

[og5]

Can someone comment on this? I find myself in this situation a lot, overcards to an all rag board. (though this one is somewhat coordinated) Would you guys just fold it on the flop or continue?

Thanks

[wrto4556]

AK is a drawing hand. Play it like one.

[Roland19]

AK is not a drawing hand. What do you mean specifically by this comment? Are you implying that our hero call down based on pot odds and fold on the river. Situations like this are tough because it's hard to know if your overcard outs are good. In this spot, without an insanely definitive read, I call the turn and flop and fold the river. The pot is big, true, but I don't think there is any chance at all that your hand is good here.

[bilbo-san]

How does everyone feel about the cap? Given that MP1 called, I'm not sure CO's 3bet is just a "my hand is too good to fold" type of raise. If this was suited I would re-raise, here I prefer to just call. Am I weak for thinking that?

[Hoi Polloi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was hoping he was calling down overcards like I was.

[/ QUOTE ]

with the difference being that he's not calling down, he's betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

good one; lol

[Hoi Polloi]

Where's bisonbison to say:

"post this in micro stakes. seriously"

???

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
AK is not a drawing hand. What do you mean specifically by this comment? Are you implying that our hero call down based on pot odds and fold on the river. Situations like this are tough because it's hard to know if your overcard outs are good. In this spot, without an insanely definitive read, I call the turn and flop and fold the river. The pot is big, true, but I don't think there is any chance at all that your hand is good here.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you say AK is not a drawing hand and then talk about outs? AK is a drawing hand. You are drawing to a big pair, trips, two pair, straights, and flushes. The guy is being aggressive, and I assumme that your A-high is no good. In this example to have outs to TPTK and a backdoor flush.

I'm watching American Idol....hold on

[wrto4556]

Ok....

I just call the three bet preflop. Check/call the flop, and check/fold the turn UI.

I was just saying that AK is a drawing hand, and if you miss your draw you need to quit giving away your money.

[Roland19]

I'm watching American Idol, too, and it rocks, no questions there. Then by your definition of a drawing hand, every hand in poker is a drawing hand, unless you wanna talk about big pocket pairs being already "made" hands. So I guess, theoretically, just about every poker hand is a drawing hand, but I'm just saying that AK is a better drawing hand than others.

[Roland19]

I like your line wrto, but I would probably go ahead and cap preflop. I agree about not giving money away, and obviously, when you have overcards, they are going to be played as a drawing hand, so hero should evaluate the likelihood that his overcard outs are good, and act accordingly based on the size of the pot. But then again, I also don't mind the bet/call on the flop, because I think the backdoor flush draw adds a little bit of value to this hand. I guess I'm just confused... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm watching American Idol, too, and it rocks, no questions there. Then by your definition of a drawing hand, every hand in poker is a drawing hand, unless you wanna talk about big pocket pairs being already "made" hands. So I guess, theoretically, just about every poker hand is a drawing hand, but I'm just saying that AK is a better drawing hand than others.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a better drawing hand. That's why you raise with it.

I still wonder if C/c C/f is passive....Definately not capping preflop or calling the river.

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
I like your line wrto, but I would probably go ahead and cap preflop. I agree about not giving money away, and obviously, when you have overcards, they are going to be played as a drawing hand, so hero should evaluate the likelihood that his overcard outs are good, and act accordingly based on the size of the pot. But then again, I also don't mind the bet/call on the flop, because I think the backdoor flush draw adds a little bit of value to this hand. I guess I'm just confused... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Since we capped preflop, we should lead on the flop, too. I think the turn is where it gets nasty since the pot is so big.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you say AK is not a drawing hand and then talk about outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you have A /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif, and the flop comes
3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, and for some reason, that guy your playing with opts to show you his hand of K /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif, well, all of a sudden, you have 7 outs to the winning hand.

I just said 'outs' when talking about AA. Does that make it a drawing hand?

Is AK a drawing hand vs AQ? No, its a made hand. Ace-King high! It needs to be protected.

To absolutely define a hand that contains no pair as 'drawing' and all hands that contain a pair or better as 'made' is rediculous.

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can you say AK is not a drawing hand and then talk about outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you have A /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif, and the flop comes
3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, and for some reason, that guy your playing with opts to show you his hand of K /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif, well, all of a sudden, you have 7 outs to the winning hand.

I just said 'outs' when talking about AA. Does that make it a drawing hand?

Is AK a drawing hand vs AQ? No, its a made hand. Ace-King high! It needs to be protected.

To absolutely define a hand that contains no pair as 'drawing' and all hands that contain a pair or better as 'made' is rediculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right.

I guess it would have been better if I said that your AK is drawing *here* and that you shouldn't play it like a made hand. It's unlikely you're up against AQ.

You hurt my brain with the AQ vs AK. That's not very nice. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[eh923]

Roland,

I've liked your posts so far until I read... [ QUOTE ]
I'm watching American Idol, too, and it rocks

[/ QUOTE ]
American Idol sucks. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

That being said, AK is a drawing hand...but one that CAN win unimproved.

Mike

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it would have been better if I said that your AK is drawing *here* and that you shouldn't play it like a made hand. It's unlikely you're up against AQ.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like this A LOT more!

[Roland19]

I can't believe all of this garbage. American Idol rocks....and it's not even close. Do you see why?

By the way, wrto and Ismael, I agree with the fact that the classification of a hand as "made" or "drawing" is largely situational and subjective. So, in this case, yes, you are drawing. The label itself in general doesn't matter.