Before you post that hand, READ THIS

[GrunchCan]

There are too many new threads in micros right now, and too many frivolous ones.

I know what many of you are thinking. "This is a poker strategy board. How can posting a poker hand and asking for strategy advice be wrong?"

Everybody has strategy questions. But many of our questions have already been answered. Sometimes, threads get a really great discussion going, with lots of people chiming in with a new angle to consider. Everybody benefits from those threads.

Some people post great advice, and everyone who reads that advice benefits.

Some people post bad advice, and when they are shown the error of thier ways, everybody again benefits. Not only does the bad-advice poster get his play corrected, but so does every lurker who felt the same way. Believe me, there are lots and lots of lurkers like this.

There's almost never just 1 way to play a hand or just 1 thing to think about during play. The more people who respond to a thread, the more angles that are discussed, and the more everyone benefits.

Of course, everybody who has a hand they felt icky with wants to post that hand and get a million responsed from all the Big Name posters. So people post. And post. And post. It's like they keep calling, praying to hit thier 1-outer that will win a big pot. So the board gets innundated with posts. Post after post after post falls off the bottom of the page with only 20 views and just 1 or 2 responses. Nobody can keep up with all the posts. Its impossible for any single thread to gain any momentum and gather lots of discussion, and the whole forum suffers.

This doesn't benefit anyone. Everybody has to initiate fewer threads, and reply more often to existing threads. Don't be afraid of posting bad advice. If you post something that's wrong, you will quicklly be corrected. That's OK! Nobody thinks you are an idiot for posting bad advice, and everybody has just benefitted by reading the correction.

So please, for the good of the forum, start fewer threads and reply to existing threads more often.

[btspider]

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

(aka: i concur whole heartedly)

I took a brief break from posting in the micro forum to work on my 6 max game a little bit. I came back the past couple days and have really been surprised by a lot of posts which basically contained hands with zero thought provided. This is not an answer forum. I highly recommend a lot of the vets ignore posts that make no effort to provide reads, attempt an answer, or at least begin the process of breaking down their own question. that's not to say those are appropriate (or available) for every topic.. but make an effort.

reading and responding to existing threads is how i learned to play. i find it much more valuable than posting a hand, unless there is a specific situation that i feel uncortable with. when you feel uncomfortable with a huge range of things, just read/respond to hands and you'll tackle things much faster. save the topics for specific hurdles.. not general learning.

[Buckmulligan]

This advice seems to go against what I see as being the purpose of these forums. Whenever I see a new player asking for advice, people tell him to "post hands that make him feel icky," as is the case with the articles in the 2+2 magazine.

Also, the "icky I dont know what is going on posts" are much less annoying to me than the "did I miss .5 SB with this flopped quads" junk that I see.

[Shillx]

Good work duder. This post will be bumped early and often.

Brad

[AlmightyJay]

I agree completely. I've learned so much more by posting my thoughts on threads and getting told why I'm wrong. The key word there is ***WHY*** I'm wrong. Just being told that you're wrong and here's the right thing doesn't help anyone. But the people who know what they're talking about are willing to take the time to EXPLAIN why what they feel is correct. And that's how you learn.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Whenever I see a new player asking for advice, people tell him to "post hands that make him feel icky," as is the case with the articles in the 2+2 magazine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your absolutely right about that. And I must admit that I commit this sin myself. But when I first realized (a while ago) that more threads are paradoxically worse for the forum and me personally, I started to change my advice. Now instead of telling people, "Post more hands." I try to tell people "Reply to threads more often."

I suggest that everyone else do the same, or something along those lines.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
This advice seems to go against what I see as being the purpose of these forums. Whenever I see a new player asking for advice, people tell him to "post hands that make him feel icky," as is the case with the articles in the 2+2 magazine.

[/ QUOTE ]

i always cringe when i see that.. i think the advice should be "read a bunch of existing topics, try to answer them, then read the responses". when you feel 'icky' on a lot of hands, you really just need to be exposed to more hands and more situations. that's best done by reading existing hands.

[deepsquat]

as a relative "n00b" any and every post is an opp for me to answer and learn more and have my answers challenged by the vets if need be. The more posts the merrier.

The "did i extract enough value" threads are garbage but every other post serves a purpose for me.

The purpose of this forum as i understand is to learn and share ideas.

[Entity]

More POSTS are good.

More THREADS are not.

This is a good post, Grunch. I'm considering turning over my stewardship of the micros to you. If you're in need of a good monkey avatar, I have one around somewhere. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[LoaferGee12]

I really think we need to sticky this or something like it. With all the new topics going up this thing is eventually going to get buried over time (how about that for irony).

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I really think we need to sticky this or something like it. With all the new topics going up this thing is eventually going to get buried over time (how about that for irony).

[/ QUOTE ]

and i was harped on when my first revision of the sticky post contained some strong language about not posting new topics so much /images/graemlins/smile.gif

we can just mass bump this sucker or do a v1.1 of the sticky perhaps. i'm not sure 2p2 would want too strong a recommendation for posting guidelines though.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree completely. I've learned so much more by posting my thoughts on threads and getting told why I'm wrong. The key word there is ***WHY*** I'm wrong. Just being told that you're wrong and here's the right thing doesn't help anyone. But the people who know what they're talking about are willing to take the time to EXPLAIN why what they feel is correct. And that's how you learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what he said. I agree whole-heartedly. The threads I've learned the most are the threads where I posted a response and either got trounced upon, or agreed with by people I respect.

KO

[Buckmulligan]

[ QUOTE ]
Your absolutely right about that. And I must admit that I commit this sin myself. But when I first realized (a while ago) that more threads are paradoxically worse for the forum and me personally, I started to change my advice. Now instead of telling people, "Post more hands." I try to tell people "Reply to threads more often."

I suggest that everyone else do the same, or something along those lines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now we are in the same page; Spider just complained to me about one of my posts and had a valid point as well, as I became one of my pet peeves. Instead of posting a hand and explaining my thoughts throughout the hand for criticism, I just threw the hand down and said: WTF shouldyou F'in do here?

If new players post hand threads, they won't get anything out of them unless they have their thoughts addressed, not just their play; After all, in a limit game you will never have more than 4 options (check/bet/call/fold) and usually don't have more than two. Good and bad players make the right decision fairly often in limit holdem simply because quite often there aren't enough ways that they can make mistakes. So I say post thoughts on other people's threads, or post thoughts on your own thread, but if they are on your own thread, make them comprehensive.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I really think we need to sticky this or something like it. With all the new topics going up this thing is eventually going to get buried over time (how about that for irony).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we need a second sticky. Putting this statement in the next update of the FAQ/guidelines would be good enough.

(By posting this, I also get an auto-*bump* to keep this towards the top.)

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]

or do a v1.1 of the sticky perhaps. i'm not sure 2p2 would want too strong a recommendation for posting guidelines though.

[/ QUOTE ]

v1.1 sounds good (just assuming it's a normal sticky?) .
Who is 2p2.

[btspider]

actually, maybe its just me, but has the number of PT stat posts gone down since the sticky went up?

of course, the week or so before it went up, there was a mass of stat posts with ridiculously small sample sizes.

2p2 = twoplustwo.. the operators of this site.. they make the rules and have to approve of the contents of the sticky. it took ahile to get what is there approved, so v1.1 should have some worthwhile changes.. otherwise its not worth it.

[Isura]

Good post, and I agree completely. I confess that I posted a rather routine hand today with no reads, but I've posted like 4 hands this week, and responded to over 100 so I guess I'm off the hook this time.

Another point is the effect of the hand converter. The hand converter is a convienient tool, but many times a poster will just paste the hand into the post and not think about it first. I find it helpful when the OP adds a running commentary between streets, as this shows he is really thinking about the hand and attempting to recreate the situation for the readers. I'm going to try to do this more often in my posts too.

[detruncate]

Everyone likes to hearken back to the good old days, but the problem has more to do with numbers than anything else. Posting multiple threads used to be very common. Now it's rare to see more than a couple. And yet the traffic keeps going up.

I read every post in every Micro thread for my first 3-4 months. I can't imagine doing so now. There's just too much to keep up with. But I can remember thinking things like, "how many posts about pocket jacks do we need" even then.

I can do without the stats posts, but they're easy to ignore. Same with the off topic/nc/general question/bonus whoring stuff.

It comes down to simple common sense:

New posters should feel free to ask questions, but are encouraged to make an effort to find answers via search/lurking.

People who have been around for a little while should start to help out the newbies with the basics as soon as possible instead of relying on established posters to do so. Things like pot odds/equity, how-to basics, bankroll stuff... the things you learn in your first few weeks around here. Give back, and start early.

Everyone should make an effort to do their own legwork. Posting a thread should be the last resort. There's a whole archive of info out there, and the much maligned search function works well enough if you use a little smarts -- you can also use google (site:twoplustwo.com [insert search string here])as more than one person has pointed out. Searching the internet is a skill most people should have at least a passing familiarity with these days, so "I couldn't find it" is usually a sign of giving up too easily. Don't be lazy. Poker is a meritocracy. You get out of it what you put into it.

It's not about getting answers, it's about the process of exploring questions. Improving the way you think about the game is immeasurably more valuable than collecting cookie-cutter solutions.

It's your forum, and will be exactly what you make it. Act accordingly.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm considering turning over my stewardship of the micros to you. If you're in need of a good monkey avatar, I have one around somewhere. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I'd be honored to be the micros steward. Only trouble is, I still suck at poker.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm considering turning over my stewardship of the micros to you. If you're in need of a good monkey avatar, I have one around somewhere. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I'd be honored to be the micros steward. Only trouble is, I still suck at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aye. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I took a much needed vacation from micros recently (and frankly, it shows). It's just that the quality of posts has gone down. "No reads" has become common.

I think some of the veterans (myself definetly included) have reacted to this by just saying "fold pf" /images/graemlins/grin.gif or "raise the turn". I think the forum would be better if we started explaining why. And granted, this will come with less new threads, etc.

John

[TomBrooks]

I have been feeling the same way Grunch Can expressed above the whole time I've been active here. I probably open only about 10% of the posts on this forum. Most of the time, if I take the time to read something, I will reply to it. I find replying to a hand post requires me to analyse and think about the problem much more than posting a question. I probably learn more from that than posting a question.

I suspect some of the people who post hands didn't spend much time reviewing the hand themselves before deciding to just ask for others help.

Also, this is not the only forum on the site. Most people, like myself, want to spend some time on some of the other forums also.

There was another thread along similar lines to this one about a month ago and it was widely agreed with. It could probably be found around page 40 now.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm considering turning over my stewardship of the micros to you. If you're in need of a good monkey avatar, I have one around somewhere. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I'd be honored to be the micros steward. Only trouble is, I still suck at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you be willing to accept the monkey avatar though?

[bottomset]

yeah I hate the no read hands just about as much as the smallsample size stat posts

[LoaferGee12]

Hey, sometimes you just sat down :/

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I still suck at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never stopped me in the past. Did you read all of my old posts the other day that CDC bumped them? Heh. There was some bad, bad juju in there.

Rob

[KaiShin]

Thanks for the post, I hope people take this advice to heart. After posting a bunch of hands when I first got here I realized I learn more by reviewing other threads and posting there. Hopefully others will see that its to their advantage not to spew hand histories, but to read and think about the game.

All of us are guilty of throwing in the occasional noise post (ie. Fold PF), or thread (like some SF or Quad thread), but if we try not to stroke our egos too much we should all be better off.

Also, I have a monopoly on monkey avatars.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm considering turning over my stewardship of the micros to you. If you're in need of a good monkey avatar, I have one around somewhere. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I'd be honored to be the micros steward. Only trouble is, I still suck at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you be willing to accept the monkey avatar though?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should get an inverse-monkey avatar, like entity's inverse CDC avatar. It might start a trend.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you read all of my old posts the other day that CDC bumped them? Heh. There was some bad, bad juju in there.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, I saw some. I remember thinking you must be on drugs, or something. Funny stuff.

[istewart]

Grunch,

Good post Lumberg.

[djhoneybear]

I'm kind of on the fence here. On the one hand I agree that posting hands without reads or any kind of thought pattern isn't very productive. However, when a new player is starting out he isn't making reads and probably only knows to raise with a good hand and check-raise with a great one. Everything else is a mystery.

But if beginners start posting hands in the beginners forum - thats not going to be very productive either. We do need to encourage players to read more and add their ideas to hands that have already been posted rather than hoping for a quick fix. I have also seen a post or two with a poorly explained (although sometimes correct) response which encourages the poster to repost.

[gasoltub]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I have a monopoly on monkey avatars.

[/ QUOTE ]

no you don't /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[KaiShin]

I expect my royalty cheque in the mail next week.

[gasoltub]

[ QUOTE ]
I expect my royalty cheque in the mail next week.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have my monkey talk to your monkey about it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I expect my royalty cheque in the mail next week.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have my monkey talk to your monkey about it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Are both you dudes too new to know that Entity was the original monkey?

[KaiShin]

Yup. But its not a monkey anymore, so its alllllll mine!

Edit: I think this thread hijack illustrates the "Not everyone makes useful posts, but we should try to keep those useful posts to a minimum" concept. Or at least the lack of it.

At least we're bumping the thread /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[gasoltub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I expect my royalty cheque in the mail next week.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have my monkey talk to your monkey about it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Are both you dudes too new to know that Entity was the original monkey?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, is that bad? I guess we'll have to talk to his monkey too then...

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes, threads get a really great discussion going, with lots of people chiming in with a new angle to consider. Everybody benefits from those threads.

There's almost never just 1 way to play a hand or just 1 thing to think about during play. The more people who respond to a thread, the more angles that are discussed, and the more everyone benefits.

Everybody has to initiate fewer threads, and reply more often to existing threads. Don't be afraid of posting bad advice. If you post something that's wrong, you will quicklly be corrected. That's OK! Nobody thinks you are an idiot for posting bad advice, and everybody has just benefitted by reading the correction.

So please, for the good of the forum, start fewer threads and reply to existing threads more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dozens of times I have reviewed 5 or 6 hands that troubled me and come to conclusions without posting. I have also posted a few duds. But I try to keep the reply to post ratio high. I also try to respond to posts before reading what others have said.

That said I would be <font color="red">LOST</font> without 2+2. The time and effort you guys put into these forums is greatly appreciated.

Thanks, TripleH.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I still suck at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never stopped me in the past. Did you read all of my old posts the other day that CDC bumped them? Heh. There was some bad, bad juju in there.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Although CDC was yanking your chain, I thought that episode was great -- to see how much your game improved in a short time period was effing heartening.

Good post, Grunch Can -- although the SS forum has been pretty "overactive" lately with hand posts (clarkmeister's thread was being bumped like 5 times a day), the micros have been worse recently. On the other hand, as pointed out in btspiders fantastic FAQ stickied thread, most newer players gravitate here naturally, and most newer players have more questions than answers. Anything to emphasize that responding / discussing / arguing about plays is much better than posting hands is worthwhile. And joining the discussion is way, way better than lurking -- but emphasis on joining a discussion rather than trying to start one with a hand post is best of all /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Again, good post Grunch Can.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
"No reads" has become common.


[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, here's a good conversation starter that will server to keep this bumped.

Actually... I prefer the 'no reads' posts.

Why? "Villain was a maniac and would raise anything, so I called him down on this one." What am I supposed to say to that? 'Don't do it'? 'You're an idiot'? 'Nice hand'?

Most plays based on reads... are, well, based on reads.

Plays based on no reads gets more into the equity position of the play, and whether it is the right odds or wrong odds, or how +EV or -EV the play is.

If I cold-call a LAG who is VPIP 97% of the time, and raises 40% of the time with A9s ... that's read-based.

Poker is very situational. You need a fundamental knowledge of the equity plays of the cards before you can start deviating from them based on reads.

So I don't mind no read posts.

KO

Edit: Corollary: Don't post a hand with some odd play, and then later respond to it saying 'Oh, he was very laggy, that's why I did it' ... THAT read needs to be in the hand post.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"No reads" has become common.


[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, here's a good conversation starter that will server to keep this bumped.

Actually... I prefer the 'no reads' posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

They both have their place. The "no reads" posts teach solid default lines. The "reads" posts teach players to adjust their defaults - not only how, but when and why. If there were never "reads" posts, then we would have ABC poker all the time, which isn't as interesting or helpful.

The big problem with reads posts is that they often don't contain reads, but just PT stats after 50 hands (or much less than that). It would be much better to have things like "He bet middle pair on the flop, turn, and river" which is not distinguishable from "He pushed his flopped two pair on all streets" or "He pumped a flush draw and bluffed the river" (from the point of view of PT AF stats).

The other problem is that people don't know what solid play looks like, and they assume the guy whose playing style is close to theirs is a good player who is up must be a good player. (Think about the "perceptions" post.)

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I expect my royalty cheque in the mail next week.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have my monkey talk to your monkey about it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Are both you dudes too new to know that Entity was the original monkey?

[/ QUOTE ]

Entity was first, but mine rides a dog.

[Aaron W.]

... we had a bi-weekly "Good threads" post by someone who has some time to dedicate to the task (it doesn't need to be one person - a few people can pool their lists together and just have one person responsible for posting them). This way, we can keep track of the better threads and make sure that the important stuff gets read.

Another idea is for a few of the veterans (who have the time) to go through and pick out the good old posts talking about common situations and make a post compiling the links. That way we can send new players straight to those for background reading.

I know that both of these ideas equate to quite a bit of work for someone (or several someones), but you need to remember that the sheer volume of posts is intimidating for the newbies, and a lot of them don't really know what they're looking for when they search.

BTW - I'm not volunteering to lead this effort because I won't be able to devote the time... however, if someone takes the lead, I may find the time to help contribute.

[Greg J]

Let's not all get our panties in a bunch guys. Newer posters will learn correct posting procedure through experience. Things seem worse than they are when we get several newer posters at once. They will learn after we smack them around a little.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
They will learn after we smack them around a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hence my post.

[memphis57]

On the sticky idea, how about a new sticky where the TITLE says just "POST FEWER NEW TOPICS, REPLY MORE TO EXISTING THREADS". That way the instruction is right there below the post-new-topic button and doesn't require clicking on it.

If you do click on it, it should have half a page or less of to-the-point instructions about what kinds of hands to post and how to post them (and advice to read and reply to other posts first).

The FAQ is great but too long for rereading everytime a newbie gets ready to make a post. But 7 or 8 lines about how to post, he may check it every time he gets ready to post.

[sin808]

great post.

[Duerig]

Long time lurker, rare poster.

BUMP.

[DMBFan23]

Grunch,

I couldn't agree more. however, I do have one reservation, and it's that posters who will take this to heart are the ones who would have learned it anyways.

g'luck y'all,
Kevin

[theRealMacoy]

Great post.

I aggree with Otter.
Posts without reads have their place.
Basing actions on low-data reads or even incorrect ones are never helpful to your play.

cheers,
the real macoy

[@bsolute_luck]

we should have name-dedicated threads /images/graemlins/grin.gif

i need so much help in my game, i could post all my hands and you'll find something to teach me. just give me a thread called "@bsolute_luck's schmuck hands" and we can all just post there as new hands come /images/graemlins/grin.gif

of course i'm just kidding because this would never work, but at least it would cut down on massive new threads. either that or split the entire forum up in to tons of mini sections

I. Hand
a. Position

then we'd cut down on reading all the different hands over and over. just click on the hand type you want to see and which position you were in with it. then go from there.

...um yeah that'll never happen either. anyway, good post. i now am nervous to post stupid newbie mistake-filled hands, but at least i'll be using the search option more frequently.

ps: i post on other's hands all the time...and get told i'm wrong a lot...well, at least i'm trying and learning right /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

well i'm off to flood the forum with drivel. peace.

[tiltaholic]

grunch is my hero, even if he did quote me yesterday and attribute it to btspider. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

great post.

and i'll bump it again after i get my bracket done.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
grunch is my hero, even if he did quote me yesterday and attribute it to btspider.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, dude. What did I say?

[tiltaholic]

bizzle that thrizzle.

only took 2 hours to get to page 3.

(something like "preflop is preflop...blahblahblah." no worries - i took it as a compliment)

[bottomset]

case in point, i am going through the really old posts(lastpage) to toggle favorites of good threads with valuable info in them, the thing is, its page 21, but the intial post was 3/1/05 as in 16days ago, we make over a 1page of new threads a day in here

[Isura]

More like 6-7 pages. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
48 Pages from the last week...

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh! You took my line.

As a n00b to the forums I must admit that when I finally decided to start asking for advice, my first inclination was to post about 10 hands from one session.

Obviously I restrained myself and only posted one. That one hand post, and the discussion and advice that followed, has resulted in a leaps and bounds improvement in my game in the last two weeks. It is imperative that newbies be shown upfront that the quality of advice they receive is not correlated to the promiscuity of the poster. Definitely sticky this thread or add the advice to the updated FAQ.

-Salty

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
That said I would be <font color="red">LOST</font> without 2+2. The time and effort you guys put into these forums is greatly appreciated.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Aaron W.]

(This is really just a bump, but I'm going to complain a little more while I'm doing it)

I've noticed that more and more people are not really even reading the posts carefully. People miss things such as reads, position, *THE ACTION* ("I didn't notice it was raised preflop"). It's really sad. This is not to say that I've never missed something, but it's still sad that this reading problem exists.

[Wetdog]

A shameless bump attempt, and...

As a n00b I joined in one morning commenting on a hand. Of course it was 180 degrees wrong and davelin told me so. OK I felt like an idiot, but then I learned why. Thanks, buddy. N00bs, just kibitzing on a hand or two per day will help your game and others who are just as, um, uneducated as you. We all kibitz about hands anyway. Just type it under an existing thread.

The idea of having a thread of JJ with subthreads UTG, MP etc could probably fill a book, nay a LIBRARY, if it were carried out to all the permutations of each starting hand. But if you want to give it a try, have a ball. I just think it would be an ambitious undertaking.

[KaiShin]

Seriously guys, read this thread!

**BUMP**

[jaxUp]

NM.

[radek2166]

Well done grunch. Its the same [censored] in here over and over again.

I know when I started posting I made some idiotic post.

"Did I play this right?"
"Help"
"ACES what did I do wrong!!!"
The usuall bad beat hands n00bs post.

Then I started talking to some poster playing in the 2+2 games.

READING, putting myself in other posters shoes. Giving advice and getting flamed for it. Looking for similar hands and working it out with a similar hand. Looked for a mentor.

Now I look over the threads, find guys I know and respect see what they have to say about certain hands.

Read and reread FAQ followed the links in FAQ. Also quit posting about flush draws, I either have odds or I dont.Their are 10000 post about flush draws in micros I bet. basicly I have learned From READING OTHERS POST. Not looking for validation in my post.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
If new players post hand threads, they won't get anything out of them unless they have their thoughts addressed, not just their play;

[/ QUOTE ]

Many of my earlier hand posts were preceded (each hand) by a little blurb about what the hell I thought I was doing.

Sometimes it said stuff like "I'm not sure I should have called this pf, but..." and went on to talk about the main question: on the flop or the turn or whatnot.

I got a lot of "fold preflop" responses.

Not really what I wanted to hear.

Probably the funiest one was when I was at work on my lunch break and I posted in mp1 just because I didn't want to waste 5 min of my lunch break waiting to play.

I had people telling me to fold preflop even though I'd posted! (as indicated in the blurb and the hand history)

So I guess the corrolary of this is that if they do post their thoughts, don't simply repond to the action. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

--Dave.

... and bump.

[FreakDaddy]

I definately think I'm not answering anymore "how did I plai it?" questions. Unless there are specific questions I'm ignoring all these hand posts from now on. It is getting a little out of hand. No pun intended.

[radek2166]

[ QUOTE ]
I definately think I'm not answering anymore "how did I plai it?" questions. Unless there are specific questions I'm ignoring all these hand posts from now on. It is getting a little out of hand. No pun intended.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to be the same hands over and over.

I to have been guilty of this. I think around pot 100 or so I got it. In my defense their was no FAQ when I started posting.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
This advice seems to go against what I see as being the purpose of these forums. Whenever I see a new player asking for advice, people tell him to "post hands that make him feel icky," as is the case with the articles in the 2+2 magazine.

Also, the "icky I dont know what is going on posts" are much less annoying to me than the "did I miss .5 SB with this flopped quads" junk that I see.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude I saw your avatar in a show put on by PIXAR at the GHIBLI studio in Koganei. Where did you get that?????

And yeah I agree with the OP. Read more and post more responses, it's way better than posting hands 90% of the time. I have learned way more through replying and being CRUSHED DOWN BY THE MASTERS than i have by posting my own hands.

ps- just kidding MASTERS i &lt;3 you

[detruncate]

The same hands over and over is the way this place works. People cycle through, new posters learn from not so new posters. Hopefully some of the more experienced cats stick around long enough to help out with the tougher stuff.

I support this initiative. Let's just not get carried away. A lot of the frustration comes from people reaching a certain point in their development where the obvious situations are not very interesting anymore. Just part of the deal, man.

Posters should be encouraged to put time and effort into their posts. They should be guided toward the search function. And then we should do our best to answer their questions -- people took the time to answer ours.

I could do with less quantity, but I think improving the general quality of posted threads is much more important -- a lot of the quantity issues will take care of themselves as the effort level increases. Part of the reason I don't post much is that it takes too damn long to do a reasonable job of composing the initial post and then managing the developing thread.

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude I saw your avatar in a show put on by PIXAR at the GHIBLI studio in Koganei. Where did you get that?????


[/ QUOTE ]
I'll answer for him. Its from a Pixar short called Boundin', which was released with the theatrical release of The Incredibles, and which you can now find on The Incredibles DVD which was released in North America on Tues.

[Aaron W.]

Just in case you missed it...

[btspider]

bump
new posts &gt; new topics

[Aaron W.]

I've noticed more and more no-content posts going up. It's not helping anything.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
I've noticed more and more no-content posts going up. It's not helping anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

[DoctorDrew]

Bump, because this is needed more than ever.

[adsman]

This needs a bump.

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
I've noticed more and more no-content posts going up. It's not helping anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
So please, for the good of the forum, start fewer threads and reply to existing threads more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty please?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So please, for the good of the forum, start fewer threads and reply to existing threads more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty please?

[/ QUOTE ]

With sugar on top??

[jaxUp]

bumpity bump.

[NAU_Player]

Anyone else think this needs to be stickied? Or that the SS forum posting guidelines should be cross-stickied here?

[Isura]

It was hard enough getting the microlimit FAQ stickied. A link to this thread could be added to the FAQ though.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else think this needs to be stickied? Or that the SS forum posting guidelines should be cross-stickied here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I wouldn't mind rewriting it. It was done somewhat hastily, like running to a new fire with a bucket.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't mind rewriting it

[/ QUOTE ]

you just want to add in a couple of "kool-aid" references, don't you...

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't mind rewriting it

[/ QUOTE ]

you just want to add in a couple of "kool-aid" references, don't you...

[/ QUOTE ]

My latest soapbox.

[Catt]

Logged off at 9:40 pm last night (west coast USA). Checked in a few minutes ago. My default view is 50 threads per page. Newly commented-upon threads, the majority of which are entirely new threads, cover all of my first page and 1/3 of my second page views.

Too many fuc[/i]king threads created on an hourly basis in this forum.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I've noticed more and more no-content posts going up. It's not helping anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

[GrunchCan]

.

[trainslayer]

btp

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This advice seems to go against what I see as being the purpose of these forums. Whenever I see a new player asking for advice, people tell him to "post hands that make him feel icky," as is the case with the articles in the 2+2 magazine.

[/ QUOTE ]



i always cringe when i see that.. i think the advice should be "read a bunch of existing topics, try to answer them, then read the responses". when you feel 'icky' on a lot of hands, you really just need to be exposed to more hands and more situations. that's best done by reading existing hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

But at the same time, I have taken the above advice. Unfortunately, my comments rarely receive responses. Is this because I am right on in my answers (I doubt that). On the other hand, when a veteran posts a similar answer about 1 hour later than me, every person on the forum stops by to congratulate him/her on their excellent post. Sure, that validates my opinions, but the practice seems to go against what you guys are looking for. Clearly, reputations have been established around here, and I am not suggesting that I deserve on. On the other hand, everyone was a pokerrookie once. And while you guys have been around the board longer than others, always keep this in mind. Some of the posters (not you or the OP, as I recall) treat everyones questions as if they have the same level of experience with poker and the boards as they do. In fact, some of the cruelest, most immature comments are directed at people with the fewest post totals. This seems to go against the purpose of the forums, and discourages people from offering up their insights in response threads. Perhaps then, they are more comfortable simply posting a hand, offering no opinions for their play, but wanting some advice, without being flamed. Just a thought, but I don't think civility is practiced much around here. And not that I am often offended by it, I laugh at some of the immature responses by people like adamstewart, etc...but I do understand how it might discourage people from "getting involved." Is that what these cruel posters are looking for? Perhaps, but I think the majority of people who post here are in favor of helping out the newbies and vets alike. Perhaps one of you (bt or the OP) could make some sort of statement against some of the assinine flaming that goes on here. I think if some effort along these lines is made, you will see the noobs more readily participate in hand discussions as opposed to posting their own (seemingly redundant) hands.

Just a few words from the soapbox. Don't know what inspired me, but I just got my first 2001FP tonight, finally came out of a long losing/break even streak, lucksacked my way to beating cnfuzzd in the CHUMP, so I am on top of (my own little poker) world.

[GrunchCan]

FWIW, I agree at least to a degree. In order for this forum to be its best, everybody has to put forth some effort. Thread originators need to be very selective of the hands they post, and manage the threads well. Thread contributors need to be plentiful and forthcoming. Forum experts need to think of themselves as caretakers, and contribute to every thread while encouraging good forum operation.

If I remember correctly, immediately after I posted this thread, and for 1 or 2 weeks after, the forum went really well. I dont take the credit; there was a big forum-improvement movement going on at the time. But keeping the forum running smoothly takes a lot of effort and we soon slacked off.

[pokerrookie]

I'll bump again, but only to mention how much of an idiot I feel like when I respond about 2 months after the original post. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[KingOtter]

I don't care much for the ridiculing posts, myself.

Not sure why, but seems to be the thing to point out apparent stupidity, and not to give the poster any credit whatsoever.

Now I'm not talking about 'Party is rigged!' type posts. Those deserve to be soundly thrashed.

Also, with the outbreak of posting-before-reading (which I think is a good thing), there are easily 4-8 responses (or more) before anyone goes back and reads the responses. To go through each response and say 'yay' or 'nay', plus a full critique. There is usually a consensus derived from the responses, though. And if your response is generally along those lines, then you're making good decisions.

Once there are more than a few posts I just respond in my head, then read the responses. I don't expect anyone to read down through 2 pages of posts to get to my response to the OP.

What *I* wish is that after there are 4-6 posts/responses to a thread, people stop posting-before-reading, and instead go into the thread and look for someone saying they didn't think about, and asking more about that particular line, and discussing it rather than trashing it. Or if they feel it is a bad line, give actual reasons for why they think it is bad.

That is actually how I'm deriving value from the forums at this point. I like reading the responses, and latching onto a particular viewpoint and exploring it with the poster.

Unfortunately, the forums are highly active, and since I only hit the forums for short periods of time throughout the day, often my post gets buried and I don't think to go back and search for it.

Anyway... them're my thoughts.

KO

[Urban]

[ QUOTE ]

Dude, I'd be honored to be the micros steward. Only trouble is, I still suck at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've no clue how good you are at poker, really. I do know that you're excellent at stewarding though. You've even made me think of posting more!

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
And not that I am often offended by it, I laugh at some of the immature responses by people like adamstewart, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]


I find it interesting that you have solely centered me out here.

Please elabourate.



Adam

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This advice seems to go against what I see as being the purpose of these forums. Whenever I see a new player asking for advice, people tell him to "post hands that make him feel icky," as is the case with the articles in the 2+2 magazine.

[/ QUOTE ]



i always cringe when i see that.. i think the advice should be "read a bunch of existing topics, try to answer them, then read the responses". when you feel 'icky' on a lot of hands, you really just need to be exposed to more hands and more situations. that's best done by reading existing hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

But at the same time, I have taken the above advice. Unfortunately, my comments rarely receive responses. Is this because I am right on in my answers (I doubt that). On the other hand, when a veteran posts a similar answer about 1 hour later than me, every person on the forum stops by to congratulate him/her on their excellent post. Sure, that validates my opinions, but the practice seems to go against what you guys are looking for. Clearly, reputations have been established around here, and I am not suggesting that I deserve on. On the other hand, everyone was a pokerrookie once. And while you guys have been around the board longer than others, always keep this in mind. Some of the posters (not you or the OP, as I recall) treat everyones questions as if they have the same level of experience with poker and the boards as they do. In fact, some of the cruelest, most immature comments are directed at people with the fewest post totals. This seems to go against the purpose of the forums, and discourages people from offering up their insights in response threads. Perhaps then, they are more comfortable simply posting a hand, offering no opinions for their play, but wanting some advice, without being flamed. Just a thought, but I don't think civility is practiced much around here. And not that I am often offended by it, I laugh at some of the immature responses by people like adamstewart, etc...but I do understand how it might discourage people from "getting involved." Is that what these cruel posters are looking for? Perhaps, but I think the majority of people who post here are in favor of helping out the newbies and vets alike. Perhaps one of you (bt or the OP) could make some sort of statement against some of the assinine flaming that goes on here. I think if some effort along these lines is made, you will see the noobs more readily participate in hand discussions as opposed to posting their own (seemingly redundant) hands.

Just a few words from the soapbox. Don't know what inspired me, but I just got my first 2001FP tonight, finally came out of a long losing/break even streak, lucksacked my way to beating cnfuzzd in the CHUMP, so I am on top of (my own little poker) world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who are these cruel posters you are referring too? I actually find that posters with fewer posts (100-300) range usually berate some newbie who makes a stats/bad beats post more often than a Pooh-Bah. I try to answer all posts I reply to objectively, and I usually make an effort to reply to OP's with few posts, especially if no one has yet replied.

[ClaytonN]

This post seriously needs to be made a sticky.

[Isura]

You mean my post right. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And not that I am often offended by it, I laugh at some of the immature responses by people like adamstewart, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it interesting that you have solely centered me out here.

Please elabourate.



Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

First name that comes to mind. Surely you can use the search function. Type in your username and see how many of your posts you can find where you are unusually, and immaturely cruel to people. Not that you are the only one, only the first I thought of. Perhaps its the icon with the guy facing away, which seems somewhat ironic given the nature of your posts.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And not that I am often offended by it, I laugh at some of the immature responses by people like adamstewart, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it interesting that you have solely centered me out here.

Please elabourate.



Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

First name that comes to mind. Surely you can use the search function. Type in your username and see how many of your posts you can find where you are unusually, and immaturely cruel to people. Not that you are the only one, only the first I thought of. Perhaps its the icon with the guy facing away, which seems somewhat ironic given the nature of your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]


whatever..... take it however you like.... (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=holdem&amp;Number=2394330&amp; Forum=,,All_Forums,,&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Limit=25&amp; Main=2391420&amp;Search=true&amp;where=&amp;Name=14197&amp;dateran ge=&amp;newerval=&amp;newertype=&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;body prev=#Post2394330)



Perhaps you should use the search function, and look under my name, and see if you find any constructive contribution posts that I may have made in my last 1700+ posts regarding poker strategy - Hint: see Small Stakes Forum.


Adam

[pokerrookie]

...and you wonder why I might have singled you out. That link must have been the series of posts that was on my mind when typing.

And nowhere did I say you haven't made valuable contributions. Just that some of your posts might rub people the wrong way, and perhaps scare newbs from responding to hands for fear of being flamed.

[restless]

Would it be technically possible to set a new thread / post ratio for users and enforce it? Maybe this would encourage people to post in existing threads more... (or worst case: create more nonsense posts...)

[benkath1]

*BUMP*

[JudoGirl]

Do yourselves a favor. Spend less time reading the forums and more time reading the 2+2 books and reviewing your hands against the advice in the books. There is way too much inanity in the forums to have to wade through...ymmv

[Twitch1977]

I'm pretty newb myself, I try to post only interesting hands but usually end up falling on my ass by missing something really obvious the first responder points out.

But in reading this I remembered an idea someone else had that perhaps new players who are committed to learning should 'buddy up' and exchange hands between the two of them.

Then they could import them into PT play through them all, put in notes and send them back, then if there were still contradicting view points or whatever they could then post them to the forum.

This way, if you're like me and frequently miss things that are really obvious it can be caught quickly, on top of this just having someone to shoot the [censored] with about poker and exchange ideas and goals with would in general be helpful.

I think this would provide a 'bad post buffer' to the forum and weed out a lot of them. Of course this would require a lot of work and dedication amongst the pairs.

Another, perhaps better, idea would be to simply not allow posting to the forum until said poster has over a certain number of posts (responses to other people's hands). Like 300 maybe? An added benefit to this would be it would get rid of a lot of people that aren't really dedicated to learning.


Anyways in closing, thanks to everyone here, it's because of you all and 2+2 that I can play poker slightly less miserably then I could before.

T

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
Good work duder. This post will be bumped early and often.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Should sticky this thread