Hand #2 from 2+2 tourney vs lstream

[Aicirt]

Here is the hand that lstream asked me to post about. Perhaps a bit loose on my part on a few streets. Comments are welcome on every street.


Tournament - 7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit - Level III (50/100), ante 10.

3rd Street

Seat 1: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif__brings-in low 15__folds
Seat 3: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif__folds
Seat 4: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif__calls__calls
Seat 6: xx xx J/images/graemlins/club.gif__folds
Hero: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif__raises
Seat 8: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif__folds

4th Street

Seat 4: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif__calls
Hero: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif__bets

5th Street

Seat 4: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif__raises__calls
Hero: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif__bets__raises

6th Street

Seat 4: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif__checks__calls
Hero: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif__bets

River

Seat 4: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif xx__checks__calls
Hero: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif__bets


Aicirt

[Andy B]

Don't know who the other guy was, and I can't put him on a hand. I think I only call on third, since your stealing equity has vanished. If you think you can push the other guy around, fine, but if he has a three-flush, he should be folding on fourth most of the time anyway.

[greenage]

Because this tourney was playing kind of tight, I like your play on 3rd and 4th. I don’t think I would have re-raised on 5th because this is lstream. Now I know it’s his first time playing Stud/8, but when he raises it’s going to get my attention big time.

[lstream]

I expect that there could be questions as to why I eased up on 6'th after being so aggressive on 5'th. This was mainly due to stack size. Another one or two streets of raising and re-raising would have put me all-in. I was worried about the boat potential of hero's hand (based upon his betting) and given my short stack status, I thought that he was staying to the end no matter how I bet.

I wanted to survive the hand and keep playing no matter what happened. The fact that I was up against 2+2'ers also made me think that hero's play was based upon sound thinking, rather than maniac behaviour.

[Aicirt]

I did not put you on a straight on 5th, I put you on flush draw. Since I thought that you were still on a draw, I wanted to put the heat on you. Your straight on 5th was guaranteed to be good...the best possible hand that I could have had was rolled up A's. Given they way the hand was played, I thought my set of 4s was good. Granted my reraise might have been a bit aggressive, but I find it hard to believe that I was supposed to put you on T J in the hole based off of the way the hand played out. Also the fact that my hand was completely disguised made me believe that when you raised my you had no idea how strong I was, thus the reraise.

The play was a little maniacish on 3rd street, but I felt that a play like this every now and again would be +EV the way that the rest of the table was playing. If this is a full table in a 150 person MTT, I muck this immediately. Obviously I got extremely lucky on the river and I had no idea how lucky that river pair card was at the time.

You were guaranteed to be a huge favorite for high on 5th...cant be afraid to bust out when you have a made straight on 5th heads up.

Aicirt

[Aicirt]

I want to elaborate on my thinking on 3rd. This might be way off, but it was working for me at the beginning of the tournament.

When you limped in with a Q, I figured you for some sort of draw. If I had limped in with what I assumed to be a semi-dead flush draw and saw an A raise behind me, I would want to fold 4th if I did not catch well on 4th. So I tried to represent something that I didnt have, yet had the potential to pick up a pot if you catch bad on 4th. When you catch that off suit 9, I have an automatic bet no matter what cards I have. Obviously you caught far better than it appeared.

By representing hands that I did not have on 3rd and 4th, I was able to pick up a lot of small pots. I thought that this would be another oportunity to do so after you showed some weakness by limping in with your Q door.

Now will I make this play in the next tournament? Not near as often as I did last time because I have been posting about it, but I felt that at the time, this would be a place where I could pick up a small pot. When I made my hidden set of 4's, against your Q 9 8 board with two diamonds, I was looking to pick up a big pot.

Aicirt

[Aicirt]

I thought that my raise would do two things, make the remaing two players behind me fold, and make the Q door notice my play and be more inclined to fold on 4th. I know that my 3rd street raise wouldnt be enough to pick the pot up on 3rd. I think that he might call a 4th street bet if the thinks my 4th street J is a brick to a low draw.

I do agree that he should be folding most of the time on 4th if he has what I think he has though. I think I might miss out on the value of deception if I fail to raise 3rd.

Aicirt

[greenage]

I don’t see how you can put him on a flush draw when three of his diamonds are dead. Before the tournament started he said this was his first time playing Stud/8. To me that means he may not know (or care) that he shouldn’t be playing that straight draw.

If he was rolled up you would have heard about it by 4th. What else is left, is an experienced Stud High player going to take a pair of Queens against and a live Ace who raises 3rd.

What would you have thought if he check-raised you on 6th?

[Aicirt]

So when he raises me on 5th with a Q 9 8 board Im supposed to put him on a made straight? I really thought he was raising me with a 4 flush. Maybe I should have given him more credit than I did, but I dont see how I can think that my hidden set of 4's is behind to Q 9 8 board.

If he check raises me on 6th Im afraid that he has a set of 8s or has 8s full. I would call it down and call the river. Pot is too large at this point to fold.

How do you suggest that I play my hand on 5th? Would you be certain enough that he had a straight to be able to lay this hand down? I know you dont like the reraise, and I dont really like it so much anymore. I agree that I probably should have flat called on 5th.


Aicirt

[greenage]

[ QUOTE ]
So when he raises me on 5th with a Q 9 8 board Im supposed to put him on a made straight? I really thought he was raising me with a 4 flush. Maybe I should have given him more credit than I did, but I dont see how I can think that my hidden set of 4's is behind to Q 9 8 board.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it’s just that a straight seems more likely to me. Actually, as you know, he had the straight and a 4-flush.

[ QUOTE ]
How do you suggest that I play my hand on 5th? Would you be certain enough that he had a straight to be able to lay this hand down? I know you dont like the reraise, and I dont really like it so much anymore. I agree that I probably should have flat called on 5th.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would check behind on 6th, call a bet on the river if I didn’t fill and raise if I did.

The b**** of this hand is that neither of you can let it go and I think that lstream was wise to just call it down.

[Aicirt]

Personally if I were lstream, I wouldve been trying to get all in as soon as I could. My board was far weaker than his was and on 5th he was 100% certain that he was ahead.

Thanks for your comments greenage.

I am interested to hear what lstream has to say about this hand now that weve reflected on it some.

And on an aside, In my last post I meant to say trip 9s or 9s full and not 8s.

Aicirt

[greenage]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally if I were lstream, I wouldve been trying to get all in as soon as I could. My board was far weaker than his was and on 5th he was 100% certain that he was ahead.

Thanks for your comments greenage.

I am interested to hear what lstream has to say about this hand now that weve reflected on it some.

And on an aside, In my last post I meant to say trip 9s or 9s full and not 8s.

Aicirt

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to say one more thing and then I’ll shut up.

I would play 6th/7th the way I said if I was up against lstream specifically. If I was against Andy B (for example) I wouldn’t because I know he wouldn’t limp in with that straight draw. Now I’m not trying to put lstream down here, not at all, I think I’m giving him a lot of credit for being a good Stud High player.

[lstream]

Greenage,

[ QUOTE ]
To me that means he may not know (or care) that he shouldn’t be playing that straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have the hand history, but I'm pretty sure I started with 10/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Do you think I should have avoided playing this, considering this starting hand. Diamonds were pretty dead, but there I was with a straight flush draw. In a cash stud high game I'm not going to fold this hand until I see fourth at least. Given that this was my first stud/8 game, I did find myself asking whether I should be playing it or not. I was getting pretty short stacked, and a wrong choice on hand selection could have knocked me out of the tournament.

Later on, you mention that a more experienced player would not have limped in with this starting hand. Is your thinking that the hand should have been folded or completed, and that just limping in is too weak?

Aicirt - my only comment so far matches Greenages - neither of us can fold and this hand was headed for a showdown no matter what. I had this conclusion after 5'th street during play. I would have raised when I hit trips too, but I would not have raised third.

In a cash game, or a tourney where I was not so short stacked, I may have check raised on 6'th. I am not very experienced in tournament play either, so maybe I am playing too defensively here.

All-in-all, I figure this hand was quite an introduction for me to the world of Stud/8. Very educational - I think also that I could really learn to like Stud/8. Seems like a very rich intricate game.

[greenage]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have the hand history, but I'm pretty sure I started with 10 J Q . Do you think I should have avoided playing this, considering this starting hand. Diamonds were pretty dead, but there I was with a straight flush draw. In a cash stud high game I'm not going to fold this hand until I see fourth at least. Given that this was my first stud/8 game, I did find myself asking whether I should be playing it or not. I was getting pretty short stacked, and a wrong choice on hand selection could have knocked me out of the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

My apologies, that is what you had and I knew that. Then I went off on this tangent about how you wouldn’t be in there with (just) a flush draw and I forgot about it.

I don’t have Ray Zee’s book with me here at work, so I might not get this exact. But I “think” a regular straight draw (that doesn’t have low potential) is consider too marginal to play in Stud/8 but that a straight flush draw is OK. If I have this wrong, hopefully someone will correct me.

Whether or not you should play it considering the three dead diamonds and four lows out is something I don’t have the answer to. Maybe Andy B will give his opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
Later on, you mention that a more experienced player would not have limped in with this starting hand. Is your thinking that the hand should have been folded or completed, and that just limping in is too weak?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said this when my mindset was that you “only” had the straight draw, which I believe should be folded. With the straight/flush draw I will again defer to experienced players like Andy.

lstream, I really wasn’t trying to say anything negative about your play. Actually, I was trying to say the opposite, that I would have tremendous respect for your raise.

[lstream]

[ QUOTE ]
lstream, I really wasn’t trying to say anything negative about your play

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem - I didn't think you were saying anything negative at all. I'm pretty sure that I would have folded a pure straight draw as well. I fold a lot of straight draws in stud high, although it depends on the nature of the table somewhat.

Given the likelihood of splitting the pot in stud/8, I can see the wisdom of folding straight draws even more. When I was looking at the straight flush draw, I had the "uh-oh here we go feeling". It struck me that is was the type of hand that was going to result in either a lot of pain or a lot of gain. The catch on fourth amplified these feelings. Pretty interesting hand though, right?

[greenage]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty interesting hand though, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, I think so. Kind of hopeless and heartbreaking too, since there’s nothing you can do but put your hope in the poker god’s, who I think owe you one.

[Andy B]

QJT is essentially unplayable in this game, which is why I wouldn't put you on a straight. There are certainly players I could put on a straight on fifth street, but I assume most of you guys know better. <font color="red">Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif </font> is a different animal. This is playable, although your hand is dead enough that maybe you shouldn't play it. Given how this tournament was playing, though, I would have raised coming in. I think this tournament was tight enough that no one should have limped unless he had a hand that he was dying to get action on, i.e., rolled-up trips or a small three-card straight flush.

Another reason I wouldn't put you on a straight is that you failed to cap on fifth. You have a lock. Why not jam?