The 2 Craziest hands I've ever played.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Sorry I don't have PT so I don't know how to use the hand convertor. I'll try to mimic it manually.

Playing heads up off the button.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 77
Hero Raises, Villain calls.

Flop (4sb) K 7 6 rainbow
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

Turn (20sb)K
I though he must of had 2 pair, with the higher being kings. But I figured he could also have a set of 6's or two pair of 67. I figured I'd raise to see what he had, if he didn't have the kings he'd just call, otherwise he'd re-raise. I would know easily how to proceed.

Hero raises, Villain Re-raises. Hero calls.

River (14bb) 2

I figure he has me beat but I can't fold into a pot this big profitably.

Hero checks, Villain Raises, Hero calls.

Villain shows 44. I spew soda all over my monitor.





Hand 2:

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K7 suited
Hero calls, Villain checks.

Flop (2sb) K J 7 rainbow
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

Turn (7bb) K
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

River (19bb) 3
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 31bb

Villain turns over K 7. I call it a night.

[Ianco15]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry I don't have PT so I don't know how to use the hand convertor. I'll try to mimic it manually.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need PT to use the hand converter. Heres the link. (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

[Ianco15]

The way you use the hand converter is to copy and paste a hand history into the "input" box and hit "convert hand". Copy and paste the text that appears in the "output" box into you post.

[DavidC]

Hand 2: Raise preflop. You've got a friggin King, man! Do you have any idea how awesome a king is? It's almost an ace, that's how awesome it is!

Other than that, perfect.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hand 1:

Cap the turn, bet the river, call a raise.

After showdown, say, "Holy crap! I almost folded that!"

(and wipe off the monitor)

--Dave.

[DavidC]

... and don't use yahoo mail. that screws up the formatting a little bit and the converter ceases to function.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I'm having trouble with heads up / really short handed starting requirements. Anyone have a link for some info?

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
... and don't use yahoo mail. that screws up the formatting a little bit and the converter ceases to function.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know this is off-topic (i'm stealing the thread i swear /images/graemlins/smile.gif ), but i have yahoo mail and the converter muffs it up, but even if i copy/paste to word and go from there, it doesn't seem to do things right.

well...it works up to like the river. even if i have it all highlighted and pasted, the converter completely skips any play on the river and goes right to final pot size. any ideas?

[bigmac366]

try the heads up/shorthanded forum here. www.pokerpages.com (http://www.pokerpages.com) has some shorthanded articles

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... and don't use yahoo mail. that screws up the formatting a little bit and the converter ceases to function.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know this is off-topic (i'm stealing the thread i swear /images/graemlins/smile.gif ), but i have yahoo mail and the converter muffs it up, but even if i copy/paste to word and go from there, it doesn't seem to do things right.

well...it works up to like the river. even if i have it all highlighted and pasted, the converter completely skips any play on the river and goes right to final pot size. any ideas?

[/ QUOTE ]

import it into poker tracker, cut and paste it from there, if it imports properly.

If that doesn't work, do what I do: set up your yahoo to export to your outlook through POP3, then get your mail in outlook, and it will work just fine!

[DavidC]

There is an entire forum on it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Also, in Holdem Poker for Advanced Players there's a heads-up / three way section. It's a really tough read though.

Just keep this in mind: 72o is better heads-up than 42s, as high card strength and high pair strength matter more than the ability to make gutshot straights, etc., heads-up.

I raise:
-any pair
-any ace
-any king
-qjo to q9o, qjs to q8s
-jto to j9o, jts to j8s
-t9o, t8s, 98o, 98s

This depends a lot on how weak my opponent is, what position I'm in, whether he's already called into the hand and what his calling standards are, and how much control I feel I have over things post-flop. Unless things are optimal, I'll back off a little bit on the weaker of the above hands, calling into the flop instead.

Also, you want to investigate the raking policy of the site you're playing at when it's heads-up. The rake WILL KILL YOU, if you're paying half of it all the time, unless you've got really really bad opposition. Seat fees kick ass HU, but they're not available online.

Also, TOP (which I'm reading now) states that poker begins as a fight for the antes, and that you have to play more loosely, not just in the first round, but also in the future rounds, when the future bet sizes are smaller in relation to the antes.

HPFAP deals with this in detail in their HU/3-way section. TOP rocks! (at least, it does around chapters 4-6... I haven't got too much past that.)

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Ya I've read all these. And yes, while the rake is bad, the people I'm playing are so abysmal it's not an issue.

The only thing that happens to me again and again is that I'll mistake a turn or river raise to mean they hit their pair, which if is lower than mine I'll re-raise. However they play so meekly that they actually have two pair and I have a hard time seeing it.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Ya I've read all these. And yes, while the rake is bad, the people I'm playing are so abysmal it's not an issue.

The only thing that happens to me again and again is that I'll mistake a turn or river raise to mean they hit their pair, which if is lower than mine I'll re-raise. However they play so meekly that they actually have two pair and I have a hard time seeing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you are seeing it now.

It comes with experience.

Plus, you'll probably not get re-raised by two pair unless you're up against top two pair, if they are truly meek.

Plus, if you have top pair and an overcard against their two pair, you've got good outs to win.

Good luck, man.

Edit: Plus implied, because they'll pay off on the river.

Plus you can take a free showdown if you're in position to do so.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]


Hand 1:

Cap the turn, bet the river, call a raise.

After showdown, say, "Holy crap! I almost folded that!"

(and wipe off the monitor)

--Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]


I thought about this hand and you've got to be wrong about this. I played the turn HORRIBLY, but capping it would of been much much worse.

In retrospect there is no reason at that time I should of made this decision with the info and opinons I had. My entire idea here was completely wrong. If I was behind there is no better hand I could of made him fold, especially at microlimit. If his hand was worse he should fold almost any holding. I lose both ways. The only way a raise there was a good move is if he would call it with a worse hand which could only be an idiot with bottom two pair, or someone with bottom set.

There was no way this move was +EV. I only won becuase someone probably let there 5 year old son play on their account.

Am I wrong about this?

[DavidC]

I think you might find that he's got K9s or something like that, and that he'll go crazy on the turn with you with that hand.

There's only two of you, so hands really go up in value. A pair is good! Trips is awesome: it means the guy probably doesn't have trips also! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Ack I meant your comment about hand 2. Ignore that part where I reply to you saying capping the turn.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Ack I meant your comment about hand 2. Ignore that part where I reply to you saying capping the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright... I think, therefore, that you're saying that my advice to bet the river and call a raise would be wrong...

My advice is correct.

He's got a good hand, perhaps the nuts. You've got an awsesome hand. He's going to pay you off here with a worse hand than you have. Even if he has QQ and simply put you on "not a king", he'll pay. (QQ isn't likely though due to PF action.)

He may even raise with a hand that you beat, and the pot will be huge, therefore you must call if he raises.

This is a really clear instance of value betting, especially heads-up. You only have to beat one player here, not the nuts.

--Dave.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ack I meant your comment about hand 2. Ignore that part where I reply to you saying capping the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright... I think, therefore, that you're saying that my advice to bet the river and call a raise would be wrong...

My advice is correct.

He's got a good hand, perhaps the nuts. You've got an awsesome hand. He's going to pay you off here with a worse hand than you have. Even if he has QQ and simply put you on "not a king", he'll pay. (QQ isn't likely though due to PF action.)

He may even raise with a hand that you beat, and the pot will be huge, therefore you must call if he raises.

This is a really clear instance of value betting, especially heads-up. You only have to beat one player here, not the nuts.

--Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]


I can't agree. In Microlimit games people with pocket pairs raise almost all the time.

AA,QQ,JJ,TT,99,88,66.

There is a near 100% chance of a preflop raise with AA and QQ. I'd say 85% chance with JJ and TT, and maybe 70% chance with 99 or 88. I'll be generous and say 0% with 66. Which means that if he had a pocket pair he would raise preflop 73% of the time.

With the flop action he would either have to have.

Two pair of. K7, K6, or 67.
Possibly a maniac with AK,KQ.
Maybe a guy With Kx (a super maniac)

Has me beat, will not fold:
AK
KQ
K7
K6
Kx

Has me beat, will fold:
Nothing

----------------------------------

Doesn't have me beat, will not fold.
66
(No AA or QQ becuase no raise preflop is inconceivable)

Doesn't have me beat, might/should fold. (These only are worth .25 hands each since he would raise with them 77% of the time)
JJ
TT
99
88



There are 1 worse hands that will pay off let's say 4-6 bets. (2-3 on the turn and river).

There is 1 (4 x .23) hand that might pay (let's say 70% of the time) 2-4 bets.

There are 11 hands (K7 would be statistically rare) That will beat and call any amount of raises.


There are only 5 hands that he would not raise preflop 23% of the time, all of which I can beat.

There are 11 hands which he will not raise preflop (99% of the time) none of which I can beat. (unless I catch a 1 outer.)


11 to 1.5 every bet costs me money.
Or 8 to 1 against me winning.

Calling it downs seems right I guess since I'd get 11 to 1 on the turn and 13 to 1 on the river.

Each bet/raise/reraise costs me -.75 bets. (I lose .875 bets on each, but gain .125 on his call)
But betting results in him re-raising, so betting on the turn and river costs you a total of -3bb.

Betting has to be incorrect.


P.S. I'm reading this before posting it and I see there is a lot more calculations I'd have to do which would make betting be not as bad as -3bb. However, I can tell without any calculation that it still results in -EV regardless.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't agree. In Microlimit games people with pocket pairs raise almost all the time.

AA,QQ,JJ,TT,99,88,66.

There is a near 100% chance of a preflop raise with AA and QQ. I'd say 85% chance with JJ and TT, and maybe 70% chance with 99 or 88. I'll be generous and say 0% with 66. Which means that if he had a pocket pair he would raise preflop 73% of the time.

With the flop action he would either have to have.

Two pair of. K7, K6, or 67.
Possibly a maniac with AK,KQ.
Maybe a guy With Kx (a super maniac)

Has me beat, will not fold:
AK
KQ
K7
K6
Kx

Has me beat, will fold:
Nothing

----------------------------------

Doesn't have me beat, will not fold.
66
(No AA or QQ becuase no raise preflop is inconceivable)

Doesn't have me beat, might/should fold. (These only are worth .25 hands each since he would raise with them 77% of the time)
JJ
TT
99
88



There are 1 worse hands that will pay off let's say 4-6 bets. (2-3 on the turn and river).

There is 1 (4 x .23) hand that might pay (let's say 70% of the time) 2-4 bets.

There are 11 hands (K7 would be statistically rare) That will beat and call any amount of raises.


There are only 5 hands that he would not raise preflop 23% of the time, all of which I can beat.

There are 11 hands which he will not raise preflop (99% of the time) none of which I can beat. (unless I catch a 1 outer.)


11 to 1.5 every bet costs me money.
Or 8 to 1 against me winning.

Calling it downs seems right I guess since I'd get 11 to 1 on the turn and 13 to 1 on the river.

Each bet/raise/reraise costs me -.75 bets. (I lose .875 bets on each, but gain .125 on his call)
But betting results in him re-raising, so betting on the turn and river costs you a total of -3bb.

Betting has to be incorrect.


P.S. I'm reading this before posting it and I see there is a lot more calculations I'd have to do which would make betting be not as bad as -3bb. However, I can tell without any calculation that it still results in -EV regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Firstly, I did say that QQ is unlikely due to PF action... just so you know (I'm not insulted or anything, because I hid it in parenthesis where you wouldn't see it (you are going to die)).

Secondly, I'm impressed that you're adjusting the probabilities of the hand distribution based on the action: good job! That's pretty advanced stuff.

However, nothing that you've told me has me convinced that you should slow down here. Full houses aren't half-bad, don't come around very often, and should be made to be as profitable as possible.

Please read this post as an example. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1965127&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

On the flop, any pair, including 44, is going to pound at you here, because it's heads-up, and the odds are that you haven't paired yet! In addition, AQ will sometimes cap the betting here in order to get a free look at the river card. Top pair will cap this hand because he's got top pair. He will cap the turn because he's got trips. You should cap the flop because you have a set, likewise the turn because you've got a full house.

My point: He will cap the betting on the flop, in position, with many many hands when it's heads-up. Don't fear the worst every time you get a lot of action.

When this guy raises you on the turn, the hands that beat you are: K7 (you've got the 7 so this is super-rare), KK (if he slowplayed this, PAY HIM!), and K6. Everyone else is drawing nearly dead and you're not going to be behind very often.

On the river, after a capped turn, I bet and call a raise on every card in the deck, with the exception of a K.

If the third K lands, I check and call a bet.

[DavidC]

I guess all I can tell you is to try it and see what your results are. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

--Dave.

[radek2166]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG with K7 suited
Hero calls, Villain checks.

Flop (2sb) K J 7 rainbow
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

Turn (7bb) K
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

River (19bb) 3
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 31bb

Villain turns over K 7. I call it a night.

[/ QUOTE ]

Help me understad y this is so crazy? Im a bit confused

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG with K7 suited
Hero calls, Villain checks.

Flop (2sb) K J 7 rainbow
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

Turn (7bb) K
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

River (19bb) 3
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 31bb

Villain turns over K 7. I call it a night.

[/ QUOTE ]

Help me understad y this is so crazy? Im a bit confused

[/ QUOTE ]

Statistically, a hand like that is pretty rare.

I don't often see it: maybe once in 12000 hands or so...

For a newwer member, it might be quite surprising.

But I'm sure you knew that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG with K7 suited
Hero calls, Villain checks.

Flop (2sb) K J 7 rainbow
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

Turn (7bb) K
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

River (19bb) 3
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 31bb

Villain turns over K 7. I call it a night.

[/ QUOTE ]

Help me understad y this is so crazy? Im a bit confused

[/ QUOTE ]

Becuase we both hit a full house with the exact same hand? That CAN'T be common.

I used to play live HU NL vs my roomate nightly for a year or 2. The wierdest thing to happen there was both chopping an all in becuase we both had pocket aces.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Holy cow.

I should of gone to bed.


Ugh.


Somehow I became so confused with all the action so I didnt bother to remember it right.

I somehow was thinking the turn was K67 K, but also that there were 2 other paired cards out there on the board (like some magical board that had 6 cards). I was thinking this over for 20+ mins and never noticed this till now.

I'm going to sleep

[radek2166]

I was playing at the Excalibur the other night. They have a promtion aces cracked gets to spin the wheel. You can win 20-300.

I have ~ 20 hours logged in a week. I have yet to see aces.

I get aces UTG I raise 3 callers. Flop rags I bet fold fold reraise capped. HU same action all the way to the river. AA vs AA No spin. Thats how you know your having a bad night.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG with K7 suited
Hero calls, Villain checks.

Flop (2sb) K J 7 rainbow
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

Turn (7bb) K
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

River (19bb) 3
Hero raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain re-raises, Hero re-raises, Villain caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 31bb

Villain turns over K 7. I call it a night.

[/ QUOTE ]

Help me understad y this is so crazy? Im a bit confused

[/ QUOTE ]

Becuase we both hit a full house with the exact same hand? That CAN'T be common.

I used to play live HU NL vs my roomate nightly for a year or 2. The wierdest thing to happen there was both chopping an all in becuase we both had pocket aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would have been weirder if you chopped and you both had 32o