AK situation

[Steve Giufre]

I read a post in general forum a couple minutes ago that took me by surprise and got me thinking a little. Say you are in a fairly high limit online game and you have no reads.

One limper and you raise with AK, suits unimportant. Both blinds call, and the limper calls.

Flop: 2 5 10 rainbow.

Blinds check, limper bets. Whats your play, and if you do continue, whats your plan for the rest of the hand?

[Paluka]

I think in a high limit game you just call. If you raise you will get 3 bet if the limper has a T, which is pretty likely here. I guess if you raise it might clean up your ace outs if one of the blinds hit their kickers, but this doesn't seem that likely.

[TStoneMBD]

i think that calling is fine, as long as you make a habit out of smooth calling the flop with large pairs, waiting for the turn. in passive games i raise here all the time, but high limit online games are usually very aggressive of course.

[Dave Mac]

I agree, the bet seems to usually be an excuse to 3 bet b/c they know you will raise with whatver you missed with. I think you need to call, raise a good turna dn fold a bad one.
Dave

[kurosh]

If you're using that logic, why not raise the flop, call the 3-bet and raise the turn with big pairs?

[andyfox]

Can't speak to the internet, but at Commerce, I would say most often I call the flop, less often I raise, and less often I fold. If I had to estimate percentages, I'd say 42-33-25. When I play on, to steal a line from Tommy, my plan is to fold on either the turn or river.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

calling-and-seeing is underrated, though i will often raise here, unless i know i'm likely to get 3-bet.

[James282]

I'll often raise, as in high online limit games people will wait for the turn to check-raise top pair after they've seen you aren't giving up on the flop. Then you can take a free card, or bet if it is a player you believe to be posturing. I dunno, I feel like I'm getting three-bet on the flop less and less these days.
-James

[theBruiser500]

You've got 6 outs, 6/47 which is about 1/8 and pot is 9 SB, but given the fact that you could very easily be raised behind you (and possibly 3 bet back to you) that makes it 2 SB on the flop to 12, 6:1 when you are 7:1 to hit. Seems like a fold is fine here too if you sense a raise might be coming. Also you could be reverse dominated.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
Can't speak to the internet, but at Commerce, I would say most often I call the flop, less often I raise, and less often I fold. If I had to estimate percentages, I'd say 42-33-25. When I play on, to steal a line from Tommy, my plan is to fold on either the turn or river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

[Turning Stone Pro]

Steve:

If it is PP 15-30 of which you speak, this is a classic scenario for the ace-adjustment theory. I raise the flop bet 100% of the time, to force the blinds out with second or third pair.

The A will hit on the turn about 33% more often than it will in a "normal" game. In the chance that you do not improve on the turn I would check, and muck to a river bet. I would expect the flop bettor to have a 10.

TSP

[DeeJ]

Is this as a result of pattern matching, because you hold AK? must be sommat like that

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Steve:

If it is PP 15-30 of which you speak, this is a classic scenario for the ace-adjustment theory. I raise the flop bet 100% of the time, to force the blinds out with second or third pair.

The A will hit on the turn about 33% more often than it will in a "normal" game. In the chance that you do not improve on the turn I would check, and muck to a river bet. I would expect the flop bettor to have a 10.

TSP

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this post is a joke, but I don't really get it.

[TStoneMBD]

read up on the ace-adjustment theory paluka, TSP has come up with some staggering bullshit.

[stoxtrader]

this is a great, thought provoking post. goes to show you that if you hit middle pair, leading the flop puts the pre-flopraiser in a tough spot. except when he has an overpair /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I really like a call here. only reason a raise might be better is if you get bluffin equity from representing a higher pair. I think the free-card play is overrated in general, and not worth it here because

a) you lose customers for when you do hit
b) you can get three bet.

folding is just giving up to much with a raised pot 4 ways.

I call here 80-90% and raise 10-20, I would raise if flop bettor is LAG/bluffer, try and gt it HU, check behind on turn and call down unimproved or get a riase in if i hit one of my presumed 6 outs.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a great, thought provoking post. goes to show you that if you hit middle pair, leading the flop puts the pre-flopraiser in a tough spot. except when he has an overpair /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I really like a call here. only reason a raise might be better is if you get bluffin equity from representing a higher pair. I think the free-card play is overrated in general, and not worth it here because

a) you lose customers for when you do hit
b) you can get three bet.

folding is just giving up to much with a raised pot 4 ways.

I call here 80-90% and raise 10-20, I would raise if flop bettor is LAG/bluffer, try and gt it HU, check behind on turn and call down unimproved or get a riase in if i hit one of my presumed 6 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you chimed in because I'm way to lazy to give my own thoughts this morning. I really think you are right here. With a pretty drawless board like that in a four handed pot, the limper is gonna have a hand he planning to take a shown down a lot of the time. I think in most online games you will get three bet by a ten at least half the time. Seems to me when I raise here I usually just end up making the pot a great big mess, and then Im forced to call a turn bet with a hand that wont even have ten outs some of the time. I dont raising is horrible, and I think it could fine under the right circumstances, but agaist a bunch of unknowns I like a call.