I'm bad at river play

[GrunchCan]

Both my opponents here are loose and passive. They will call down with all kinds of 3-out draws to 1 pair.

I've probably answered my own question.

But I'm pretty bad at knowing when to put in a value bet on the river.


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero...?

Thoughts?

What sorts of things should I be thinking about here?

[Jeffage]

I would seriously consider checkraising the flop rather than leading into 5 people here. On the end, it may be a good spot to check and hope to induce a bluff from a busted draw.

Jeff

[Shillx]

Bet the river. If you check, they will surely bet a king or something like 2-pair and will check through all other hands you beat (you know the drill). The 2nd best play is probably to check/fold with check/calling being the worst unless they will just take randoom stabs at the river (doesn't sounds like they will though).

Brad

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
I would seriously consider checkraising the flop rather than leading into 5 people here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured my opponents were too passive to bet if they missed, and I wanted to get bets in while I had the equity to do so.

[Jeffage]

It would be rare to see that flop checked through with that many opponents. People will bet flopped draws, lower pockets, and maybe overs.

Jeff

[Roy6]

if it's checked through what's your play if the turn is a Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or a 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif?

[Jeffage]

Bet and fold to a raise. I don't think a flop bet is terrible here, just not optimal.

Jeff

[LoaferGee12]

I really don't see a reason to check/raise this flop. This flop is pretty ragged and could easily get checked through. What does a check-raise really get accomplished here anyways? I agree on bet/folding the river though.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Both my opponents here are loose and passive. They will call down with all kinds of 3-out draws to 1 pair.

I've probably answered my own question.

But I'm pretty bad at knowing when to put in a value bet on the river.


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero...?

Thoughts?

What sorts of things should I be thinking about here?

[/ QUOTE ]-

bet, but you know that

[PancakeBoy]

What exactly do you want to get called down by that you should bet that river? If they were calling with Overs they very well may have hit, if they were calling with flushy flush draws they very well may have hit their pair on the river too..

If they were calling you with a smaller pair they'll check behind the river...


Check and fold - if they're truly loose passive they won't bet a T8 or weaker....

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
What exactly do you want to get called down by that you should bet that river? If they were calling with Overs they very well may have hit, if they were calling with flushy flush draws they very well may have hit their pair on the river too..

If they were calling you with a smaller pair they'll check behind the river...


Check and fold - if they're truly loose passive they won't bet a T8 or weaker....

[/ QUOTE ]

According to grunchcan
[ QUOTE ]
Both my opponents here are loose and passive. They will call down with all kinds of 3-out draws to 1 pair.



[/ QUOTE ]

They will be calling the river with basically any pair (exception of twos probably). You are missing a major value bet by not betting here.

Edit: Off the top of my head, potential hands that will pay us off on the river. T8 T7 99-77 55 44 65 34 (granted they would need to be pretty loose for a few of these but I see calls like this all the time verse these type of players).

[PancakeBoy]

[ QUOTE ]


They will be calling the river with basically any pair. You are missing a major value bet by not betting here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even a deuce or a trey? I guess if that's the case a bet is okay...

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river. If you check, they will surely bet a king or something like 2-pair and will check through all other hands you beat (you know the drill). The 2nd best play is probably to check/fold with check/calling being the worst unless they will just take randoom stabs at the river (doesn't sounds like they will though).

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Gawd, I suck at river play. This has got to be the biggest leak in my game right now.

I know I should bet the river, and I know why. Here's why sometimes I dont bet anyway.

I have a marginal hand, and passive opponents whom I'm pretty sure are drawing to 1 or 2 overcards, probably an A or K. When that A or K comes on the river, I figure there's a very good chance that they have just sucked out to beat me. I know that there's no guarantee that I'm second best at this point, so I really want to show the hand down.

If I bet the river, I figure someone who spiked TP will raise. But I really want to call, so the river could cost me up to 2 BB if I bet.

If I just check with the intention of calling 1 BB 100% of the time (to snap off bluffs &amp; lower pairs), showing down costs me a maximum of 1 BB.

So I'll very often check-call this river, which shill says is the worst possible line.

Someone pleasse show me the error of my ways.

[pokerjunky]

FWIW, I'm in the check raise a late position bettor camp on the flop to force overcards and other draws to face two cold. Otherwise with implied odds they are getting correct odds to call the flop bet. Believe it or not, the field probably has anywhere from 6 to 20 collective outs against you here so you need to knock some people out. If your kicker was an overcard then I would be more inclined to bet the flop, but otherwise you should go for the check raise.

[Emmitt2222]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone pleasse show me the error of my ways

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Both my opponents here are loose and passive

[/ QUOTE ]
which means if your read is correct that they will give you free cards too many time or check the river through in this instance if they have a less than great hand, but at the same time they will call a bet on the river because they will call with any hand which could very well be worse than yours. This is the definition of a value bet because value betting is not betting strong hands that are sure to win but marginal hands that have a much higher chance of winning against loose passive players. If you bet they will most likely not raise with a better hand unless it is stellar but they will also call with any sort of pair.

Check/folding is actually better than check/calling in this situation because your opponent is less likely to bet when he has a very marginal hand and more likely to bet when he has a better hand.

Just drill it in, value betting is betting marginal hands on the river against loose passive opponents, don't be afraid to pull the trigger.

[eh923]

I agree about the flop...but the "induce a bluff" line is just weak. I don't remember meeting a lot of loose, passive players who like to bluff busted draws against one opponent, much less two.

According to the original post, he has reason to believe that if he bets, he'll win more than enough to compensate for when he loses. He also has little reason to fear a raise behind him coming from a better hand or as a bluff. This is an EASY value bet.