A10s in BB - too aggresive?

[FreakDaddy]

I'm most unsure about the river play, I feel like if I'm going to play it then I should value bet it. If I'm raised then I'm probably beat 85% of the time or so.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, CO folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

[Firefly]

I like the play up until the river. Then I check/call the river. Him checking behind isn't horrible in this pot.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the play up until the river. Then I check/call the river. Him checking behind isn't horrible in this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm always caught between value betting this really marginal hands or just checking in this situation. I thought he may be raising with a marginal hand from the button to put pressure on the blind so I played him on Ace rag.

[Firefly]

The only thing is that you raised him on the flop and turn and he didn't seem to care, either he's a donk or he's got a strong hand.
If you have him on ace rag, i'd rather pay one bet to see that i'm ahead, rather then 2 to see that i ran into a set or two pair.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing is that you raised him on the flop and turn and he didn't seem to care, either he's a donk or he's got a strong hand.
If you have him on ace rag, i'd rather pay one bet to see that i'm ahead, rather then 2 to see that i ran into a set or two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

[Shillx]

If you are going to call preflop, you should probably take a different line.

Check/raise the flop and see what happens. If he just calls, I would bet-3bet the turn. You have to think that your ace is good here as he will raise the turn with any ace in this spot. If he 3-bets the flop I would call it and see what the turn brings. When the turn brings an ace, I would check/call it and check/raise the river and get paid off by his KK-99 (betting the river again certain opponents is okay as well, but check/calling is not).

Having said that, 3-betting preflop might be the best play. You can't afford to play scared in this spot. You called preflop in a 3-way pot with ATs where you very well could be dominated. When the ace comes on the turn, you can't start thinking "crap now I'm getting pwned by his AK". IMO, you called preflop becase you felt like your hand was good. Now play it like it is.

Brad

[Firefly]

I'm not willing to 3-bet this preflop. What if he caps? IMHO: you are playing ATs so you can hit a favourable flop, and play it, or fold if the flop is not favourable.
I like the c/r idea, it may buy you a free card on the turn. Still, i really, really don't think you want to 3-bet ATs OOP. Convince me otherwise though, i can be swayed /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Shillx]

IMHO: you are playing ATs so you can hit a favourable flop, and play it, or fold if the flop is not favourable.

4 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls, CO folds.

Given this preflop action, ATs looks like juicy steak dinner compared to what they hold. We have to think our hand is good in this spot. There are way to many hands that we have in bad shape that the button will take a stab at the pot with preflop.

Brad

[Firefly]

Obviously true, i just tend not to give credit an unknown for in-position raising.
You've convinced me, because if we 3-bet and he caps, we generally know where we stand, which is good, because as hero played it, we have a wide, wide range of hands to put the villan on. Plus we now have control of the hand. So 3-betting is definately the way to go.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously true, i just tend not to give credit an unknown for in-position raising.
You've convinced me, because if we 3-bet and he caps, we generally know where we stand, which is good, because as hero played it, we have a wide, wide range of hands to put the villan on. Plus we now have control of the hand. So 3-betting is definately the way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying that we should always 3-bet preflop, but we should call with the mindset that our hand is good and we are getting a bit tricky. Iow, we aren't just calling to try and hit a flop (like we might with a very small pair). We are going to make some moves when he hit/miss because we probably have the best hand. Sometimes I just call with a hand like AK in this spot (with the intention of check/raising any flop). I find that it is a good way to mix up your game.

Brad

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to call preflop, you should probably take a different line.

Check/raise the flop and see what happens. If he just calls, I would bet-3bet the turn. You have to think that your ace is good here as he will raise the turn with any ace in this spot. If he 3-bets the flop I would call it and see what the turn brings. When the turn brings an ace, I would check/call it and check/raise the river and get paid off by his KK-99 (betting the river again certain opponents is okay as well, but check/calling is not).

Having said that, 3-betting preflop might be the best play. You can't afford to play scared in this spot. You called preflop in a 3-way pot with ATs where you very well could be dominated. When the ace comes on the turn, you can't start thinking "crap now I'm getting pwned by his AK". IMO, you called preflop becase you felt like your hand was good. Now play it like it is.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the advice. The problem I run into hereis I don't think it would be out of line for Button to cap with QQ-AA or AK and perhaps even KJs QKs from this position with no one in the pot. If I were in his position I'd raise all those hands from the button with only the blinds left.

So if I do indeed 3-bet and button caps, then I'm still looking at a fairly even range of hands that I don't know if I'm ahead or not after the flop. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Firefly]

That's true, this situation allows a wide variety of lines. I'm just not comforatable in these spots quite yet. I'll give some more thought to it. I'm very ABC and try to minimize my 'fancy' plays. I'm guilty of being too standard sometimes, and i should mix it up to keep both my opponents and myself offgurad.

[TomBrooks]

OP Asked: Too Aggressive?

TomBk sez:

FLOP: Maybe. You might want to call to allow SB to stick around in case you make your nut flush. On the other hand, knocking him out may buy you outs for your overcards. And if SB is the type that will play any two from there even with a raise, you may want to knock him off or make him pay for a possible straight draw.

RIVER: Maybe. I'm going to assume Button didn't raise preflop with 22, 44, 66, or 53, so he doesn't have a set or a straight. Therefore, his actions up to and including the turn tell me one of two things.

1. He has AA or AK-AJ and the Aces you made on the turn are dominated, or

2. Since you bet the flop, he may just have you on the flush draw and want to charge you with his monster pocket pair KK, QQ, JJ, TT etc.

There are 16 ways to have AK, but since you have one and one came on the board, there are 8 ways he could have that. Add one way he could have AA. Add 8 for AQ and 8 for AJ. Thats 41 ways to dominate you.

There are 6 ways each he could have KK, QQ, JJ, and only 4 for TT since you have one. Add 18 for KQ. That makes 40 ways he could be behind you with hands he'd raise pre-flop with, maybe more depending on how pre-flop aggressive he is.

I'd say the river bet is about a 50-50 decision. Do you feel lucky? Probably I'd check the river and call the bet.

How does that sound?

= TomBk

[TomBrooks]

So FreakDaddy,

What was the result of this hand?

[mvoss]

(In the dark)

I think the river bet is too aggressive. This guy raised you twice indicating a pretty strong hand. I'd c/c the river.

[deception5]

Check/raise this flop. You have more than 1/3 of the equity with the nut flush draw and it would be nice to get the button to bet (which is likely as the preflop raiser), the small blind to call and you can raise getting in at least one more bet from the small blind (maybe even 2-3 more).

Turn looks good. River I'd check/call.

Also, unless this hand is atypical for this table uncheck the auto post blind option after you are the small blind!

[aK13]

I wouldn't count on the A or T giving me the winning hand. I also check/raise on the flop because MP2 is the likely bettor, and you want to trap the field for 2 bets. When the A hits on the turn, I check/call to showdown.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't count on the A or T giving me the winning hand. I also check/raise on the flop because MP2 is the likely bettor, and you want to trap the field for 2 bets. When the A hits on the turn, I check/call to showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wondering how something similar to wa/wb would work here starting on the turn. check/call the turn and bet the river to keep kk/qq/etc from checking behind on the river?

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't count on the A or T giving me the winning hand. I also check/raise on the flop because MP2 is the likely bettor, and you want to trap the field for 2 bets. When the A hits on the turn, I check/call to showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wondering how something similar to wa/wb would work here starting on the turn. check/call the turn and bet the river to keep kk/qq/etc from checking behind on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

True. Check/call the turn with the A, then a bet/call on the river if a brick falls seems to be a good line.