I keep being blind to straights

[Buccaneer]

I am so mad that I could spit nails. I was playing in a single table tourney. As usuall I was trying to play very tight and pick my fights, most of the time I finish in top 3 which is better than my ring play. I like tourneys because I do much better when there are six or fewer players. All was fine in my little poker universe, I was in a close second and the short stacks were being picked off one by one. Then it happened: I got beat by someone that hit a straight on the turn. Thier betting pattern changed on the turn and continued to the river. The board was screaming STRAIGHT. My opponents betting was screaming STRAIGHT. My brain was screaming, wow, you hit two pair or what ever garbage I was playing. Start the celebration, you took these clowns down this hand, way to go. I kept betting because "this is my hand" but it was not mine. My cards should have gone in the muck when my opponent bet the turn.

I know that this is stupid. I know that I took possession of the pot before the end of the hand. I know that I just basically quit playing when I made my two pair. So I have a handle on what I did wrong but this is what burns me up, I do this all the time.

I should be embarased to ask this question but how can I fix this. It is always straights and not flushes. As a beginer I hope that you take pity on me, and offer me a few comments that could help. Thanks.

[SheridanCat]

Hmmm, interesting.

You might try spending some time with a deck of cards. Lay out flop/turn/river and say out loud what the best hand would be at any given street. Do this until you instinctively start to recognize the patterns that lead to the best hands. Do this online when you play too; say out loud what the best hand is. Try saying the second best also.

The idea is to give attention to the cards such that you know without a lot of thinking what they signify. When you see 78J on the flop you should be able to say 9T, recognizing the two-gap right away. I'm not saying you should be putting your opponents on these hands, but rather that you recognize what hands are possible. There aren't that many patterns to recognize.

It's also about experience. The adrenaline overpowers our ability to look objectively at the board. After you've seen enough monster/good hands, the adrenaline stops pumping so hard.

Regards,

T

[contentless]

I agree. Similar to Sheridan's advice, you always should force yourself into seeing the 'worst case scenarios'. AK6 falls, and you have AK, always remember that just perhaps, your opponent has 66. (God, I'm such a geek.) If you do that enough, it becomes reflex. Of course, like Sheridan says, don't put your opponents on those cards and play weak-tight, but always recognize the worst case scenario so that when someone changes their betting, it'll be something that makes you go 'hmmmmm'.

[KenProspero]

You might try this.

Any time it's your turn to bet, ask your self the question -- what straight/flush draws are there. Even if you intend to fold.

First of all, by thinking of it every time, you'll get better at recognizing the pattern. Secondly, by waiting a few seconds before acting under all circumstances, you avoid the possible tell of acting quickly when you hit a big hand (though I don't know if this is even a problem for you).

In any event, always taking a few seconds to review what's happened can't hurt, and as long as you're quick, won't really even hold up the table.

Oh, and don't beat yourself up too much. Even if the board screams straight, many times the opponent has just hit a top pair, or has been slowplaying a top pair.

It takes a lot of skill to get away from two pair in a SnG, if the straight hits, most likely you're losing a lot of chips, even if you play correctly.

[Buccaneer]

Thank you for your responses. You have given me somethings to think about and do (practice). As I said I just do not seem to see the possible straights on the board. I do seem to consider them WHEN I see them so I shall try what you guys suggest.

I have another question that may be related to the above. I like heads up play and games with 4 - 5 other players. I have Turbo and do well when I limit the # of players on that prog also. That I seem to like to play, and do better shorthanded I wonder if I am, like suggested, discounting worst case hands too much (more players = more chance to draw a better hand) or if this might be a function of bad play on the part of others. I was beat this morning with AA which I played correctly but someone forgot to fold that suited K3. It was a limit game and I was unable to pressure them more than I did, that's poker and easier to deal with if you play well but really hurts if you play bad and miss some of the info you have to make decisions on.

So do you think that my preference to play short handed and avoid full games has anything to do with my not paying attention to the board? Could this be a fatal adjustment (playing short) I have made that will cause further bad play in the future?

[chaz64]

Don't feel too bad about this. It took a while for me to realize that bad players tend to make straights more often than good players. Why? Because good players try to stick with big cards pre-flop, and bad players play more marginal hands. You will play AK more often that T9, but which hand makes more straights? T9 of course. It's not going to win as often as AK, but it will make more straights.

You shouldn't assume that because a straight is possible that someone has it. But when you get bet into or rasied on the turn you should look at the board a second time before proceeding.

Another problem is when you play two big cards (especially when it was 3-bet or capped PF) and you flop or turn two pair - you may very well be behind a straight. Here's an extreme example:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero...?

Hero just turned top two pair...and has to fold. Because even if he's not behind a set, anyone with king-rag now has a straight, and four outs to a boat is not enough to call here. HTH.

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
It took a while for me to realize that bad players tend to make straights more often than good players. Why? Because good players try to stick with big cards pre-flop, and bad players play more marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is inherently false. do you see why? it should be easy for you to see why this is incorrect.

cheers!

[contentless]

I'm not certain I agree with your analysis on the turn play. It's 4 outs to the boat, which is giving slightly less than 11 to 1, while you've got 9 to 1 on the pot. But you've got at least 2 hidden outs to split on if the king falls, and you've got to believe that if you do hit the boat, that the BB will at the very least, call. There aren't any special hands that mess you over. AK takes away one of your outs, as does KQ, but that's about it. There's also a bluff possibility, so I think the play is to just call to the river. It's a loose call, but only marginally loose.

Edit: Yes, the set screws you over. But while it's possible, it's not concrete. Sitting behind the BB means if you call, the BB has to figure out if he ran up against a K.

[chaz64]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It took a while for me to realize that bad players tend to make straights more often than good players. Why? Because good players try to stick with big cards pre-flop, and bad players play more marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is inherently false. do you see why? it should be easy for you to see why this is incorrect.

cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

No I don't see why. AK gets a straight with QJT, only. T9 makes twice as many, one with KQJ, another with 876. Bad players are going to play hands like T9 (and worse connectors and one-gappers) more often than good players.

[tripdad]

the comment i had an issue with was that "good players play big cards. bad players play more marginal hands."

the fact is that good players play LOTS of marginal hands, so long as they are marginally profitable. the reason is that they can play them more skillfully after the flop. for a good player to not play a marginally profitable hand is just as bad as a bad player playing a marginally unprofitable hand. depending on position and other factors, T9 can often be marginally profitable. if a player is good, he knows that, and therefore will play it. some of the best players i know are consistently entering pots with such hands, and are "looser" overall than many bad players who insist on only playing big hands (therefore limiting their profits).

your post seemed to infer to the OP that he is getting beaten consistently by bad players who play any 2 connected cards. he may simply be getting outplayed by better players regularly.

cheers!

[A WHOLE]

[ QUOTE ]
I am so mad that I could spit nails. I was playing in a single table tourney. As usuall I was trying to play very tight and pick my fights, most of the time I finish in top 3 which is better than my ring play. I like tourneys because I do much better when there are six or fewer players. All was fine in my little poker universe, I was in a close second and the short stacks were being picked off one by one. Then it happened: I got beat by someone that hit a straight on the turn. Thier betting pattern changed on the turn and continued to the river. The board was screaming STRAIGHT. My opponents betting was screaming STRAIGHT. My brain was screaming, wow, you hit two pair or what ever garbage I was playing. Start the celebration, you took these clowns down this hand, way to go. I kept betting because "this is my hand" but it was not mine. My cards should have gone in the muck when my opponent bet the turn.

I know that this is stupid. I know that I took possession of the pot before the end of the hand. I know that I just basically quit playing when I made my two pair. So I have a handle on what I did wrong but this is what burns me up, I do this all the time.

I should be embarased to ask this question but how can I fix this. It is always straights and not flushes. As a beginer I hope that you take pity on me, and offer me a few comments that could help. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]


Just out of curiosity, do you see the straight (made or draw) when you're on it?