9-2s.. i think i misplayed every action.

[masonx]

Both people in the hand had an AF of < .3 after 60 hands or so.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

<font color="black"> ^^ probably shoulda folded... </font>

Flop: (12 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, CO calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, CO folds, Hero folds, UTG calls.

<font color="black">^^ i was intending to c/r but then the 2nd guy raised the bettor</font>

River: (12 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 12 BB

[masonx]

i'll correct myself then. i was getting close to 9-1 preflop but this is most likely a fold. getting 14-1 calling was close because of the flush draw but we can basically assume i had 3 clean outs. so calling is correct. i think i played the turn correctly too except maybe i should have made it 3 bets. but considering the passivity of my opponents im not convinced that raising/calling was the right play.

[meep_42]

I think bet/folding to a 3-bet is the best idea on the turn.

Other than that, i'm fine with this hand.

-d

[emil3000]

This is totally ok in my view.

[chief444]

I do fold this preflop.

I think going for a check/raise on the turn is best. If you lead out a passive player is unlikely to raise without a better hand. So you might as well get the most money you can in with a hand that's likely best. I think the fold is fine too given the opponent descriptions.

[hate]

I'll never fold any two-suited getting 11:1. 4% to just hit your flush, and the occasional trips or ragged two-pair have to easily make this profitable without even considering implied odds.

[lmbree]

with those aggression factors and that action, I think you did the only thing you could.

[spydog]

You must call this preflop getting 11:1. It's not even close.

I agree with checkraising this turn. 3-bet this turn and it's not even close. Folding 2-pair on this board is a sin.

[Jules22]

i would never ever fold on this turn. thats just silly. the real debate is whether to 3 bet or to call

[hate]

I think you're overestimating the power of bottom two pair. I'd rather have top pair than bottom two any day.

[ESCaspian]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're overestimating the power of bottom two pair. I'd rather have top pair than bottom two any day.

[/ QUOTE ]

With one card to come? Can you explain your thinking on this?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
You must call this preflop getting 11:1. It's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]
Getting 11:1 calling a raise in the BB is quite a bit different than getting 11:1 completing in the SB. I don't think this is a clear call. Not bad but not clear.

I also think you're exagerrating the turn. I think it's pretty close.

[ckessel]

[ QUOTE ]
Getting 11:1 calling a raise in the BB is quite a bit different than getting 11:1 completing in the SB. I don't think this is a clear call. Not bad but not clear.

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally fold this at the flop, but with this many callers it's reasonable. As the previous poster said, 11:1 completing the SB is different than 11:1, as that 1/2 SB in the SB earns a greater relative reward if it hits (1/2SB preflop, earns full SB/BB post flop, vs putting in a full SB preflop in the BB).

The flop seems fine, it's a bit pot, you can take one off pretty cheaply. I don't get folding the turn though. The MP turn raise might have just been a paired king waiting for a non-heart to hit, or a guy with top pair and now a flush draw.

The river still holds a raft of scary cards though. I still think I'd fold preflop or the flop when I didn't get at least a backdoor flush draw to go with the pair.

[djoyce003]

If they are as passive as you say it might not be a bad laydown. I threebet this personally. No way do I fold..the pot is too big here and I think 2 pair is good way more than 15% of the time here, which is about all it has to be.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
No way do I fold..the pot is too big here and I think 2 pair is good way more than 15% of the time here, which is about all it has to be.


[/ QUOTE ]
You need to be good more than 15% of the time. You have to consider the possibility of a 3-bet on the turn and river bets you'll be calling. Also you're subject to redraws those times you are good.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You must call this preflop getting 11:1. It's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]
Getting 11:1 calling a raise in the BB is quite a bit different than getting 11:1 completing in the SB. I don't think this is a clear call. Not bad but not clear.

I also think you're exagerrating the turn. I think it's pretty close.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct, completing in the SB at 11:1 is waaay better than calling a bet in the BB getting 11:1, but I still only need 3-4 people in a raised pot to call any 2 suited from the BB.

I 3-bet this turn to fold UTG if he is drawing live with 5 outs. If it's capped, then I probably dump it right there as I'm probably drawing to a 2nd best full house. I think calling here is wrong. I think folding here is worse than calling.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
I think calling here is wrong. I think folding here is worse than calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
hmmmm. I was thinking exactly opposite. I think a 3-bet is actually the worst option. I just don't see being ahead often enough and I don't think you gain much by folding out UTG. But like I said I just felt it was closer than you made it out to be and I can see an argument for any option.

Calling any two suited with 3-4 people in a raised pot from the BB is interesting. I don't do it but I'm open to other opinions and I've been wrong before.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]

Calling any two suited with 3-4 people in a raised pot from the BB is interesting. I don't do it but I'm open to other opinions and I've been wrong before.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll do some PT filtering to see if this is profitable with the above parameters. Obviously, I will filter out premium suited hands. I'm abstaining from PT for the rest of the week (see Psychology forum) so I will run my analysis and post here on Friday or Monday.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll do some PT filtering to see if this is profitable with the above parameters. Obviously, I will filter out premium suited hands. I'm abstaining from PT for the rest of the week (see Psychology forum) so I will run my analysis and post here on Friday or Monday.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'll be interested. I would do the same except I won't have any data. Make sure you don't include connectors or one-gappers too OK? I'll probably look at whatever suited hands I do call with when I get home tonight since I'm curious now. Thanks.

[spydog]

I did a quick filter in PT and found that i lost .44BB when playing these types of hands with 4-6 people seeing the flop:

J2-J6s
T2-T6s
92-95s
92-84s
72-74s
62-63s
52-53s
42s
32s

This is better than losing .50BBs so maybe this play is OK. However, I only had 23 hands in my DB that met this criteria so that's hardly conclusive.

I wonder what other people will get using the same criteria?

[mtdoak]

I usually lead out the turn with midpair here and muck to a raise....depending on the player and how many callers there are. If I'm getting 8-1 or better, i usuall call it and mucking if i don't spike my 2nd pair or trips. With the coordinated nature of the board, however, you might be better off check/folding hte flop. You have mid pair, no kicker, and at least of 2 of your outs are worthless.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
I did a quick filter in PT and found that i lost .44BB when playing these types of hands with 4-6 people seeing the flop:

J2-J6s
T2-T6s
92-95s
92-84s
72-74s
62-63s
52-53s
42s
32s

This is better than losing .50BBs so maybe this play is OK. However, I only had 23 hands in my DB that met this criteria so that's hardly conclusive.

I wonder what other people will get using the same criteria?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I could link Peter_Rus' posts, he has done some amazing analysis of implied odds of any two suited from the Big Blind. he has a limited sample size (yet far more substantial than ours) and seems to think defending in a 3 way pot with any two suited cards is profitable. search for them if you can, they're cool.

however, this is at 15/30 where raising ranges are presumably wider.

[masonx]

lets just put it this way.. i went with my read and saved myself more than 3 bets. I know results are no way to justify play.

After 6-7 rotations i had seen the MP1 raise once.. called down many numerous times with TPTK and top two etc. I had seen him raise once.. with a boat.. is it not a fact that noticing these trends and making appropriate laydowns to players that dont mix up there play is a neccisarry skill when you want to start getting into the higher limits.

Why i like folding the turn -
I was getting 11:1 on my shot for another 9 or a 2 but when you consider the fact that a 2 or a nine might help me it gets rit of that little .5 edge and makes it unprofitable.

[hate]

You're not going to expect trash like this to win with top pair anyway, trips, 2-pair and flush draws are the only things I'd play these on. When you filtered, did you take out the BB loss? I don't think 15/30 or small stakes would change much in profitability.

[alul]

[ QUOTE ]
i'll correct myself then. i was getting close to 9-1 preflop but this is most likely a fold. getting 14-1 calling was close because of the flush draw but we can basically assume i had 3 clean outs. so calling is correct. i think i played the turn correctly too except maybe i should have made it 3 bets. but considering the passivity of my opponents im not convinced that raising/calling was the right play.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you called the flop to catch a clean out? And what did you do after you did? You folded. Why did you call the flop?

[damaniac]

Because new information came on the turn that he didn't have on the flop. There was only a bet and some calls on the flop. Now on the turn a bet and a raise, both from very passive players. It's probably a good read, as a low two pair is not that strong against aggression from very passive players. You have to adjust your thinking as new information comes out. Failing to do so is just foolish.

[masonx]

[ QUOTE ]
Because new information came on the turn that he didn't have on the flop. There was only a bet and some calls on the flop. Now on the turn a bet and a raise, both from very passive players. It's probably a good read, as a low two pair is not that strong against aggression from very passive players. You have to adjust your thinking as new information comes out. Failing to do so is just foolish.

[/ QUOTE ]