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View Full Version : Value raising with set or spewing chips?

the_rookie
03-15-2005, 06:11 PM
Multi-tabling so no reads, but Villian is Tight/aggresive over 40 hands or so. Did I got a little nuts on the river? So like the subject is this considered value raising?? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG folds.

River: (6.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB
Jonny Melon
03-15-2005, 06:20 PM
I'd raise this preflop, personally.

As it stands, your 3-bet is usually good here, and I think it is fine. When it is capped, you are probably in big trouble, but against an (relative) unknown you probably need to look him up.
MrWookie47
03-15-2005, 06:28 PM
I could see Q6 or Q7 calling you like this and then raising your river bet. Not knowing he was going to cap you, I think the 3-bet was good. Naturally, you probably aren't too enthusiastic about your hand after he caps you, suspecting KT or a wonkily played T8 or 85.

For hands like these, you'd want to cut off the river action so we don't see that BB caps you. You'll get better responses.
sean c
03-15-2005, 06:32 PM
No way I'm not three betting the river.
TripleH68
03-15-2005, 06:32 PM
Looks alright to me. The only sensible hand that crushes you is KT.
davelin
03-15-2005, 06:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Looks alright to me. The only sensible hand that crushes you is KT.

[/ QUOTE ]

T8 and 85 as well.
Redd
03-15-2005, 06:40 PM
True, but it's likely we would have heard from them by now. I say 3-bet that mamajama.
GrunchCan
03-15-2005, 06:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Multi-tabling so no reads

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad.

The hand you played fine.
the_rookie
03-15-2005, 06:42 PM
Grunchcan - I agree that I need to pay more attention to the tables when multitabling. How do you about that trying to keep pace with 5 tables???

BTW- I was clearing a bonus as well.

EDIT- I do watch for things when I'm playing a bunch of tables, but it's more of the out of ordinary type things, or cold calling... etc Didn't want make myself sound like I'm playing completely without reads. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
KaiShin
03-15-2005, 06:44 PM
This seems unusual behavior for a TA. Still, you gotta 3-bet the river.
TripleH68
03-15-2005, 06:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looks alright to me. The only sensible hand that crushes you is KT.

[/ QUOTE ]

T8 and 85 as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but is there a reason for not raising the turn with T8 or 85?
GrunchCan
03-15-2005, 06:46 PM
If you are so occupied that you can't observe the behavior of your opponents, maybe you shouldn;t be playing 5 tables.

That's my opinion, anyway.
TripleH68
03-15-2005, 06:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If you are so occupied that you can't observe the behavior of your opponents, maybe you shouldn;t be playing 5 tables.

That's my opinion, anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, which is why I still play 2 tables.
davelin
03-15-2005, 06:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looks alright to me. The only sensible hand that crushes you is KT.

[/ QUOTE ]

T8 and 85 as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but is there a reason for not raising the turn with T8 or 85?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, not really but even a TAG is capable of slowplaying this.
the_rookie
03-15-2005, 07:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This seems unusual behavior for a TA. Still, you gotta 3-bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought as well, but he showed KTo for the gutshot on the river. Guess pokertracker didn't have enough hands on him....Sample Size Too Small.

I remember responding to a hand where I said AF was important, and our Hero (I think it was Aaron W.) said he only had about 40 hands on him, which was insignificant.

I believe him now. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Phew Tight Aggresive my ass. /images/graemlins/wink.gif
Wetdog
03-15-2005, 07:10 PM
If he's a tighty, couldn't he have QQ? He didn't get aggro until the river Q.

edit: I posted this while working. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Aaron W.
03-15-2005, 07:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I remember responding to a hand where I said AF was important, and our Hero (I think it was Aaron W.) said he only had about 40 hands on him, which was insignificant.

I believe him now. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Phew Tight Aggresive my ass. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally! A convert! /images/graemlins/grin.gif (It probably was something I said, as this is one of the things I've been harping on for a while.)
bottomset
03-15-2005, 07:50 PM
you are HU on the river, of the hands that the Villian will raise on this river do you beat 67% of them?? .. thats what you need since you can't fold here thus required to call the cap

I don't think he's raising enough 2pair hands for you to make this play, and thats really about all you beat here ... i think if the pot has some dead money the 3bet is better, but HU I call the river raise
TomBrooks
03-15-2005, 08:45 PM
On the river, Villian could have only made top pair Queens or two pair, but he could easily have made the straight also.

I like to call his river raise though because if you raise and he doesn't have the straight, he will call and you will win one bet. If he has the straight, he will reraise and you will have to call, losing two bets. So you stand to win one or lose two. I call.

How does that sound?

=TomBk


Edit note: I posted this before I read the results in the thread.
Aaron W.
03-15-2005, 08:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
On the river, Villian could have only made top pair Queens or two pair, but he could easily have made the straight also.

I like to call his river raise though because if you raise and he doesn't have the straight, he will call and you will win one bet. If he has the straight, he will reraise and you will have to call, losing two bets. So you stand to win one or lose two. I call.

How does that sound?

=TomBk

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on the ratio of (times you expect him to call with top pair or two pair) to (times you expect to get capped by the straight). The tipping point for this is 2:1.
TomBrooks
03-15-2005, 08:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
he showed KTo for the gutshot on the river. Guess pokertracker didn't have enough hands on him ...Tight Aggresive my ass.

[/ QUOTE ]
I posted my assessment of the hand above before I read the rest of the thread. I didn't need poker tracker to do it. I use PT to help swing some uncertain decisions one way or the other. I think reading the cards and the betting patterns in the hand are more important.

Besides, I don't think a Tight agressive is going to raise with an OESD with only a couple of opponents. An OESD has 8 outs making for a 5:1 shot. You need 5 callers to make it a worthwhile bet. If he adds 1.5 outs to spike a King, he gets 9.5 outs and still needs four callers. There was one fold after your turn bet and if he raises he is likely to fold one if not both the other players. Plus if he raises, he might induce you to check the river, so he lose the value of your river bet if he makes his hand in order to get another bet out of you before he makes his hand. Not a good idea no matter how aggressive he is.

How does that sound?

=TomBk