Bad Even at PP 22s?

[nokona13]

Obviously early. Table seemed full of normal low party jokers. Is the almost 7:1 odds on the pf call not enough? How out of line is the open raise on the flop? How about my decision that noone had AQ or a boat on the turn? I was confident, but maybe that's just because I was being an idiot...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t920)
UTG+1 (t1165)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t665)
MP3 (t670)
CO (t770)
Button (t740)
SB (t715)
Hero (t800)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t40</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls t40, CO calls t40, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls t30, Hero calls t25.

Flop: (t200) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, UTG+1 calls t150, MP3 folds, CO calls t150, SB folds.

Turn: (t650) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t150</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t300</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t610 (All-In)</font>, UTG+1 calls t460, CO calls t280 (All-In).

River: (t2450) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2450

[BigHobo]

In level 1 with early position, 1 raiser, and two callers I'm throwing KQ into the muck pre-flop as quickly as possible.

[trying2learn]

hate to be results-oriented...but how did this turn out? i'm guessing at worst you had the second best hand...

[therock]

Easy fold PF.

Since you did play, I think your postflop play is fine. AQ or QJ raises your flop bet to protect their hands, so you should be ok.

[nokona13]

Yeah, looks like this isn't going to garner lots of replies since most everyone's just thinking "Fold pre-flop". Since that's been said (and since they're right!), I'll give results.

I won the pot. CO had Q6, and MP had ATs!

[nokona13]

Appreciate the comment on post-flop along with the needed advice to fold pre-flop.

[Elektrik]

I fold preflop.

You flopped a marginal hand out of position with 3 players left to act. I check here, and see what kind of action develops. Reasons below.

Once the turn card hits, my chips are going in one way or another.

Do you see how much harder of a hand this becomes if you didn't improve on the turn? What is your plan for the two smooth callers? Are you willing to risk your stack with KQo, TPGK here?

[J-Lo]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop.

You flopped a marginal hand out of position with 3 players left to act. I check here, and see what kind of action develops. Reasons below.

Once the turn card hits, my chips are going in one way or another.

Do you see how much harder of a hand this becomes if you didn't improve on the turn? What is your plan for the two smooth callers? Are you willing to risk your stack with KQo, TPGK here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well apparantley, against these knucklehaeds, if a blank falls on turn, keep poundin' (which would pot commit you) and if the turn is a "blank" 6 then so be it... you go broke. I think these 80% edges are too large to pass up against TERRIBLE players even at levels as low as the $20.

I remember irieguy sayin' you need to play more postflop at the higher levels, (and play on the bubble on the lower levels) but with pokertracker, pokerprochecy, and notes you should be abled to figure out against whom you can win free money before the bubble.

[trying2learn]

agreed...i think fold pre is pretty easy, but after he saw the flop i would say he played the hand great. granted, the q on the turn was pretty much the best possible card for him, and there were so many possibilities that he was beat. i don't know, at the level he was playing, i've seen a hand like this scoop the pot so much i was going to be suprised if he didn't either win or have the second best hand.

i guess all of this is wasted breath when you should be folding pre in the first place.

[nokona13]

So maybe a new, related question.

Obviously this was too early to be coming in out of the blinds against a raise with KQo. With everyone with about even stacks, how many players left before you consider this a strong hand. Do you fold this until ITM?

[curtains]

btw I might fold here preflop but it definitely isn't easy or automatic. Notice that your genius opponent's will practically throw their money at you if you flop a good hand, meanwhile you are advised to fold all the time to avoid such situations!
Anyway still I admit it's close and folding is quite reasonable, I just think it's insane to call it an "obvious" fold.

[raptor517]

obviously its obvious that our poker decisions are never obvious. for the record, im folding preflop for sure. holla

[nokona13]

Haha... I always appreciate your advice, curtains. My instincts are more in line with yours that with the more conservative players you "tangle" with sometimes on the boards. When I'm playing well, I feel like I can tell if a player is bad enough to throw his money away, and I feel incredibly weak not taking it just on the chance he hit a monster. However, I'm pretty certain that I'm not actually good enough to successfully employ this more aggressive strategy yet. But I'm working on it, and it's good to know there are successful players with more aggressive instincts than some of the common wisdom on this board would suggest is possible...