Question for Atheists and maybe those who believe in God. [Archive]

Harv72b

03-15-2005, 05:37 PM

I don't do (many) things which Christians or other theists consider wrong for the same reason they don't--because I consider them wrong. I just don't believe that there is some all-knowing being watching over me and taking notes, to exact vengeance whenever I step across the lines that he has set out.

I also have the wonderful freedom that comes from being able to decide for myself what is and is not wrong (and yes, secular laws influence those decisions somewhat). I had a delicious bacon cheeseburger for lunch yesterday--were I Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu, I could not have done that without sinning. I spend my Sundays sleeping in, lying around the house, maybe doing some chores, and watching football during the season--where I a Christian, such behavior would condemn me to an eternity in hell (depending on which sect of Christianity, admittedly).

I think that if you look at the Ten Commandments from a secular standpoint you will see that, other than the first, they are simply common sense laws which were needed in order for the first forms of civilized humanity to survive. Remember that humans of the day were just starting to settle down and give up the hunter/gatherer ways, and such things as blood feuds and theivery could have undone the early cities. Putting the first commandment at the top of the list just gave the people a reason to listen to the other nine, because hey--you can't hide from an all-knowing, all-seeing punisher.

If I could kill someone and knew that I would never be convicted of the crime, I would not. Why? Because I don't think it's up to me to decide whether someone else lives or dies. If I did think that, and many others also thought that, society as a whole would crumble.

Dan Rutter

03-15-2005, 05:45 PM

I am pretty sure I said crimes that could include but are not limited to murder. Also, I said if you will not be caught for the crime. Say for example you figure out a way to steal $25,000 from your company, and there is a 100% chance no one will ever find out, you will never be caught, never go to jail. If you do not believe in God, why not?

felson

03-15-2005, 05:45 PM

I'm a Christian, but I don't think you have to believe in God to understand the difference between right and wrong, and to want to do what is right.

I also believe that we are bound to do things that are wrong, that we can't help ourselves, and that we need God's help in order to be changed and have a relationship with Him.

A_C_Slater

03-15-2005, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am pretty sure I said crimes that could include but are not limited to murder. Also, I said if you will not be caught for the crime. Say for example you figure out a way to steal $25,000 from your company, and there is a 100% chance no one will ever find out, you will never be caught, never go to jail. If you do not believe in God, why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would take it in a second. What's your point? Are you saying I should be punished? That it's not fair that I would get no comeuptence? You certainly are a violent fellow.

burningyen

03-15-2005, 06:58 PM

I'd say it's a complex admixture of fear, ego, empathy, love, and probably a few other ingredients I've forgotten.

xorbie

03-15-2005, 07:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say it's a complex admixture of fear, ego, empathy, love, and probably a few other ingredients I've forgotten.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the obvious answer.

ThisHo

03-15-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't believe that there is some all-knowing being watching over me and taking notes, to exact vengeance whenever I step across the lines that he has set out.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am a Christian and this isn't the God I believe in. The God I believe in sets rules to help me live my life to the fullest. Does He discipline me when I am wrong - yes, He does. Does He do it by running me over with a car or by some other extreme punishment, no. Jesus came to Earth to restore our relationship with God. He came and died for our sins so that we could have relationship with the God that he referred to as Abba ("daddy"). He called us "children of God" and gave us access to relationship with Abba. This is the relationship that I have with God. He loves me like a son and I love Him like a Father/Daddy. Does a Father discipline his children? If he loves them, yes he does. Does he protect them and care for them and provide for them... if he loves them, yes. This is the God that I know. This is the relationship that I have with HIM. This is possible through Jesus.

[ QUOTE ]
I spend my Sundays sleeping in, lying around the house, maybe doing some chores, and watching football during the season--where I a Christian, such behavior would condemn me to an eternity in hell (depending on which sect of Christianity, admittedly).

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming you're referring to the Catholic Church here as they are the strictest on the "must go to Church on Sunday" rules... but even they have a Saturday evening service you could attend if you wanted to sleep in on Sunday or catch some football.
However... the point of Sunday church is that its an opportunity to gather with other Christians to worship and praise God; to thank Him for the MANY blessings in our life. It is also a time for some study of His word and a time of prayer and support from other believers. Nowhere in the New Testament does it say "thou shalt go to church every Sunday." It does say not to forsake the gathering of believers. Tradition has just built itself to do it on Sunday.

[ QUOTE ]
I had a delicious bacon cheeseburger for lunch yesterday

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Where from? I love bacon cheeseburgers and I had one from Carl's Jr today, but it wasn't exactly delicious.

I think the general question from the OP is an interesting one though and the fact that one of the poster's said that if he knew 100% that he could get away with taking the $25k he ABSOLUTELY would. Also, his reason for not contract killing had nothing to do with respect for life, he just doesn't want the hassel of staying out of jail. I'm hoping I don't run into him in a dark alley 'cuz, although I'm looking forward to Heaven, I don't think I'm done with my work here yet.

just my thoughts on the topic
ThisHo

Harv72b

03-15-2005, 08:58 PM

I was obviously oversimplifying in my original post in this thread, and I applaud your beliefs and the positive influences that they have in your life. You must realize, however, that the God you believe in is not the same as the God that others believe in.

The Christian Bible teaches that God will punish your sins, not by having you get run over by a car, but rather by waiting until you die and then casting you into eternal damnation in a fiery pit of sulphur. Others have taken this a bit further to blame every day misfortunes on God's vengeance. Either way, I'd rather get hit by a car than burn for all eternity.

I got the bacon cheeseburger at Wendy's--there's a good one near here. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regarding the original poster's question, let's turn it around a little. Let's say that you, as a good Christian, one day had God speak to you personally. We won't speculate on whether or not it truly was God--we'll just say that you were absolutely convinced that it was. Now, He tells you that your next door neighbor is an evil man who will commit terrible attrocities against millions of others, and that it would please Him if you were to kill your neighbor. He promises to protect you from all earthly harm if you carry out his wishes.

Would you?

AAeyes

03-15-2005, 09:58 PM

I think most people have an internal sense of right and wrong... some have been taught to define that sense as the will of god whereas others would just feel guilty if they murdered someone. I think at the end of the day it doesn't matter what your reasoning is, the way you live your life is the way you live your life. Doesn't make much difference if it's because you don't want to go to hell or not.

BadBoyBenny

03-15-2005, 10:33 PM

I'd be happier if God just offered me the 25 grand risk free,

ThisHo

03-15-2005, 11:21 PM

Harv:

Clearly most of what is going to be posted here is "overly simplified" - no doubts and I didn't take what you wrote to be absolutely 100% of what you believe.

I do need to address one thing though before getting into the rest of your post:
[ QUOTE ]
I got the bacon cheeseburger at Wendy's--there's a good one near here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh... I'm not sure I can have a legitimate debate with someone that calls the Wendy's bacon cheeseburger delicious. Had one a month ago and I'll NEVER do that again! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ok.. with that cleared up:
[ QUOTE ]
You must realize, however, that the God you believe in is not the same as the God that others believe in.

[/ QUOTE ]
YES, I do understand that the God I believe in is not the god that others believe in. I understand that they are just as sure that their path is correct as I am. Sadly, this has been at the center of far too many of the world's major conflicts.

[ QUOTE ]
The Christian Bible teaches that God will punish your sins, not by having you get run over by a car, but rather by waiting until you die and then casting you into eternal damnation in a fiery pit of sulphur

[/ QUOTE ]
The Christian Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and that sins must be punished. The part you've left out is that JESUS came to Earth to die on the cross to serve that punishment for all mankind. Those that believe in Him and believe that He came to Earth as the Messiah and that He died for our sins and that He rose again from the grave to conquer death will be with Him in Heaven. Jesus offers mercy and forgiveness and grace to those that choose to accept it freely. Those that do not believe in Him and accept the Mercy and Forgiveness that He freely gives will, sadly, face the punishment that you have mentioned. So, you're not incorrect, but you did leave out a very large piece of the equation.
Again... I understand that not eveyone believes this, and I understand that other religions teach that there are ways for you to earn your way to their "heaven". I am just making sure that the full picture of what the Christian Bible says about sin and death and punishment and mercy and heaven are presented here.

[ QUOTE ]
We won't speculate on whether or not it truly was God--we'll just say that you were absolutely convinced that it was. Now, He tells you that your next door neighbor is an evil man who will commit terrible attrocities against millions of others, and that it would please Him if you were to kill your neighbor. He promises to protect you from all earthly harm if you carry out his wishes.

[/ QUOTE ]
We'll definately ignore the "does God talk to people" part of this question - leave that for another time...
I can't give you the straight "YES" or "NO" answer that you want here. The God I believe in would not give me directions to just walk next door and kill the guy that lives there. The Bible teaches me about the sort of things that God would have us do and this clearly is NOT in the category of that. If I felt like I were given direction from God to do something REALLY HUGE (say, move to Thailand to be a missionary) I'd be looking through my Bible and seeing if there are passages that support the idea or if there are passages that oppose the what I think I've heard. I'd pray about it and seek out council from other Christians that I trust. I wouldn't just pack my bags and move to Thailand tomorrow.
I see this question more as a trap than anything (which bums me out because I thought we were gonna have a legit debate where we didn't expect to change anyones minds, but just wanted to make sure that we understood what the other believed). I have a feeling you're next post will be "Son of Sam claimed that he got messages from God through his dog and that's why he killed people --- where does that fit into your belief system." Please tell me that's not your next post. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Have a Nice Evening!
ThisHo

andyfox

03-15-2005, 11:40 PM

"I also believe that we are bound to do things that are wrong, that we can't help ourselves, and that we need God's help in order to be changed and have a relationship with Him."

Why can't we help outselves? Nobody is perfect, of course, but we can help ourselves in many ways. I have choices I can make and I can elect to do the right thing if I so choose.

When you say we need god's help in order to change, what exactly do you mean? In order to do the right thing? And when you say "in order to have a relationship with him" do you mean we won't have a relationship with him unless we change?

Harv72b

03-16-2005, 01:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Uh... I'm not sure I can have a legitimate debate with someone that calls the Wendy's bacon cheeseburger delicious. Had one a month ago and I'll NEVER do that again! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like with any other chain restaurant, there are good Wendys and bad ones. I happen to live near a good one. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

The Christian Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and that sins must be punished. The part you've left out is that JESUS came to Earth to die on the cross to serve that punishment for all mankind. Those that believe in Him and believe that He came to Earth as the Messiah and that He died for our sins and that He rose again from the grave to conquer death will be with Him in Heaven. Jesus offers mercy and forgiveness and grace to those that choose to accept it freely. Those that do not believe in Him and accept the Mercy and Forgiveness that He freely gives will, sadly, face the punishment that you have mentioned. So, you're not incorrect, but you did leave out a very large piece of the equation.
Again... I understand that not eveyone believes this, and I understand that other religions teach that there are ways for you to earn your way to their "heaven". I am just making sure that the full picture of what the Christian Bible says about sin and death and punishment and mercy and heaven are presented here.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I understand it, though (and correct me if I'm wrong), all of mankind is still held accountable for Original Sin, or Applegate (the Eden kind, not Christina--I'd like to be held...nevermind. /images/graemlins/grin.gif). To atone for this sin, a person must accept Jesus as the Christ, be baptized, live a good life in accordance with the tenets of the Church, etc. If you do not, it's burning sulphur. Incidentally, that would be the same punishment, Biblically speaking, which would be doled out to a mass murderer or genocidal maniac. I find it very hard to comprehend how an individual could come to grips with a system that preaches that. In essence, saying that it's just as evil to be Hindu (or gay) as it is to murder 10,000 people. Again, an oversimplification, but you see the core point.

[ QUOTE ]

I can't give you the straight "YES" or "NO" answer that you want here. The God I believe in would not give me directions to just walk next door and kill the guy that lives there. The Bible teaches me about the sort of things that God would have us do and this clearly is NOT in the category of that. If I felt like I were given direction from God to do something REALLY HUGE (say, move to Thailand to be a missionary) I'd be looking through my Bible and seeing if there are passages that support the idea or if there are passages that oppose the what I think I've heard. I'd pray about it and seek out council from other Christians that I trust. I wouldn't just pack my bags and move to Thailand tomorrow.
I see this question more as a trap than anything (which bums me out because I thought we were gonna have a legit debate where we didn't expect to change anyones minds, but just wanted to make sure that we understood what the other believed). I have a feeling you're next post will be "Son of Sam claimed that he got messages from God through his dog and that's why he killed people --- where does that fit into your belief system." Please tell me that's not your next post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a trap at all, and I gave up trying to convert the masses a long time ago. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

You sort of gave the answer that I was looking for--which is that your initial reaction would be that this was wrong. That's something that's built into the vast majority of humanity, whether through genetics, society, religion, or what have you. We tend not to want to kill other people, because we have a deep-seeded belief that to do so would be wrong. That has nothing to do with the potential for punishment or reward, it's just who we are. The same holds true for an atheist as does for a theist.

Incidentally, and just for clarification's sake, the God of the Bible does command his followers to kill others, on a fairly regular basis. But only in the Old Testament; in the New Testament, we have the kinder, gentler Christian God who preaches love and compassion. This teaching has still been warped by sick individuals to justify murder throughout history, but this is true of any belief system, including atheism.

Regarding trying to change anyone's minds...I don't try to do this because I have long recognized that religion is, on the whole, a beneficial institution for the masses and for individuals. Many people need their faith in order to live their daily lives, and live better lives for it. My own viewpoint, which is sadly not shared by the vast majority of the world's religions, is that there is no right or wrong faith--only a right or wrong way to live one's life. I do try to plant the odd seed of thought within a theist's mind, yes...but only so that they can think it over and come to their own conclusions on the subject. If a person is a Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Wiccan, whatever...as long as they're happy with that, I couldn't change their minds anyway. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

octop

03-16-2005, 02:02 AM

Let me start by saying that I dont belive in God
Basically I dont go around doing anything I please is I do have a sense of right and wrong
I wont rob an old lady b/c I dont want somebody to rob my grandmother
However I will steal cable or [censored] over a credit card company without a second thought, while at the same time if the guy in the candy store gives me to much change I would give it back to him in a second

Rules set forth by religion just seem stupid
Why shouldnt I h ave sex before Im married? I think marriage is pointless anyway ( all it is is a contract and i wont even sign a 2 year cell phone contract so marriage is out)
Im supposed to deprive myself o f pleasure and that will make me a good person? Thats rediculous
Maybe I shouldnt have sex join the church and grope 6 year old boys penises instead so I go straight to heaven

bernie

03-16-2005, 05:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what factors influence you to not do things that are deemed evil, or wrong by people that believe in God? There has to be more reasons then "it is against the law that man made". Evil things can range from simple crimes of stealing from people, to murder. If you are smart enough to not get caught committing the crime, why not do it? You will not be punished in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

Religion didn't create the 'Golden Rule'. In many cases they violated it quite a bit in the past.

b

bernie

03-16-2005, 05:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you do not believe in God, why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about the people who do believe in God'd and do it? How about the mopes who do it in the name of God'd?

b

mythrilfox

03-16-2005, 06:18 AM

I don't do these things because I live under a social contract. Whether or not you get caught is beside the point, and if everyone had a view of the greater good punishment wouldn't be necessary. People who say they would steal $25,000 risk-free are threatening the system they live under in a pure, fundamental manner.

I obviously don't go about in day-to-day life thinking about these things, though. If I tell a lie it will not crush the system. Stealing is different, it's bigger, in bits and pieces it crushes the system, but I don't do either of these anyway. I think it's because an honest life is a happier life. That's probably my real motivation.

So regarding the theft question, it would be better to ask if we'd steal a billion risk-free and never have to work again. I wouldn't. I wouldn't even accept a billion if someone offered it to me. Life is about getting to the top, not being catapulted to the top by deception, or being handed the world. Those mean nothing.

twang

03-16-2005, 06:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What stops me from killing for my own profit? The risk/reward ratio is too great, not to mention the work effort required to remain free.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Religion, ethics and law are pretty much ad hoc concepts. People commit crimes because

A. the risk/reward ratio is acceptable to them

or

B. they lack the mental skills needed to make a wise risk/reward judgement.

Any reasons beyond these are probably anomalies.

/twang

mythrilfox

03-16-2005, 06:35 AM

ThisHo, you do realize your outlook allows for someone who lives a righteous life, like myself, to go to hell for eternal damnation, but a devout Catholic like Hitler to go to Heaven?

Isn't this wrong? Whose is the greater sin? Who would you rather introduce to your parents over dinner?

In regards to the original question, it's funny how religious people question where the moral compass of non-believers comes from. Religion has caused more death and suffering than anything else in the history of the world. Would the social contract fail without religion? I don't know. I doubt it. People are still ingrained with this stuff from birth. But I do know we'd be a whole lot better off without it. Imagine, no Crusades. No Inquisition. No Salem witchcraft trials. No Holocaust. No Osama Bin-Laden.

This is the world I want to live in.

mythrilfox

03-16-2005, 06:40 AM

The question is not why people commit crimes, but why people do not commit crimes.

twang

03-16-2005, 06:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The question is not why people commit crimes, but why people do not commit crimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok.

Religion, ethics and law are pretty much ad hoc concepts. People do not commit crimes because

A. the risk/reward ratio is not acceptable to them

or

B. they have the mental skills needed to make a wise risk/reward judgement.

Any reasons beyond these are probably anomalies.

/twang

Maddog121

03-16-2005, 09:59 AM

Those are not real world conditions. Some people can't see that and maybe pie in the sky rewards and bogeyman fears are the only thing that can keep them behaving rationally. Even so, those folks are time bombs waiting to go off. Look at the recent church shootings.

krishanleong

03-16-2005, 10:28 AM

I think a thinking person can come with a very simple set of morality rules if they do not believe in god. Treat others as you want to be treated is a good one.

Krishan

kevyk

03-16-2005, 10:30 AM

How big of a monkey?

krishanleong

03-16-2005, 10:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I wont rob an old lady b/c I dont want somebody to rob my grandmother
However I will steal cable or [censored] over a credit card company without a second thought, while at the same time if the guy in the candy store gives me to much change I would give it back to him in a second

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I mean. In the absence of a god, he decides himself what is right or wrong based on personal introspection.

Krishan

kevyk

03-16-2005, 10:57 AM

I have not read all of the responses to this thread, so excuse me if my point has already been made.

People choose not to commit crimes because the benefits of living in a crime-free society outweigh the benefits they will derive from criminal activity. The alternative is an existence in which life is nasty, brutish and short, where the strong prey on the weak and the weak plot revenge against the strong. Only the most desperate individuals within a functioning society would prefer such an existence to one in which they could live freely and honestly, but in which they had to agree to live according to society's rules.

Belief in God simply does not factor in.

frank_iii

03-16-2005, 01:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be happier if God just offered me the 25 grand risk free,

[/ QUOTE ]

How many raked hands?

frank_iii

03-16-2005, 01:32 PM

By the way, why are people beginning with the assumption that "right" and "wrong" exist as legitimate concepts? Furthermore, why is there the assumption that doing "wrong" would be the natural inclination without a set of rules leading otherwise?

Girchuck

03-16-2005, 02:00 PM

I don't think, the system will crumble because someone had an opportunity to steal risk-free.
It is much more likely that the system will adjust, so that this particular opportunity disappears. The society has its ways of enforcing the rules important for its survival.

Girchuck

03-16-2005, 02:19 PM

Some crimes have huge consequences, like murder for example.
Crimes with big consequences generate strong response from the enforcement agencies. At the present, the enforcement agencies are much stronger and at least somewhat smarter than vast majority of criminals. Therefore, assuming that one will not be caught for a serious crime, is likely a mistake. But getting caught is not the only consideration. A mere suspicion will often be enough to ruin a reputation. In a wealthy and ordered society, good reputation is likely worth more than proceeds of a random crime.

PotatoStew

03-16-2005, 03:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but this is true of any belief system, including atheism

[/ QUOTE ]

Atheism is a belief system in the same way that baldness is a hairstyle.

noggindoc

03-16-2005, 03:39 PM

maybe the best post in this thread!

dr_venkman

03-16-2005, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you do not believe in God, what factors influence you to not do things that are deemed evil, or wrong by people that believe in God?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Where you are now you can't even imagine what the bottom looks like". ~Tyler Durden

Why do I get the sense that this is the way every Christian missionary has been born for the last 1500 years? It starts out as an innocent question, then evolves into a "natural curiosity", and then morphs into full all out dementia.

Why do people who don't believe in God do such horrible, nasty things in the world! Someone needs to fill a Galleon with cannons, crucifixes and holy water and spread the word! Honestly, if those savages could just read the bible...

Or maybe I'm just the cynical type who has fed up with people trying to distill religion down into some camphor that they can apply to the world and make everything all better again in place of plain old, garden-variety common sense, empathy and generosity.

Religion is a dangerous, corrupt tool. One day people are going to realize morality and religion as being two seperate things. I don't do "evil" things because I don't want to hurt anyone, as I would not have anyone hurt me. Period.

But that's more a guideline than a rule, so don't come knocking on my door 8am Saturday morning with the Watchtower in hand or I might forget my better nature.

mythrilfox

03-16-2005, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Ok.

Religion, ethics and law are pretty much ad hoc concepts. People do not commit crimes because

A. the risk/reward ratio is not acceptable to them

or

B. they have the mental skills needed to make a wise risk/reward judgement.

Any reasons beyond these are probably anomalies.

/twang

[/ QUOTE ]

Suppose your best friend had a brand-new, spankin' SNES. With Chrono Trigger still in the set and everything. Suppose you could steal it without him ever finding out it was you.

The risk/reward ratio is mathematically and precisely zero.

Would you do it?

DiceyPlay

03-16-2005, 05:05 PM

At a macro level I believe:

If humans are naturally evil the human race will self-destruct ... it's only a matter of time.

If humans are naturally good the human race will one day be just like the aliens exploring the universe ... it's only a matter of time.

God has nothing to do with it. Neither does the devil. I'm not sure about El Diablo though /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

For me, I can't say if a God exists for certain. And I don't lie, cheat, or steal from anyone ever! Lieing and stealing at the poker table is different.

Reef

03-16-2005, 05:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
is there anything "wrong" with it in a metaphsical cosmic sense? No

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Here's why:

[ QUOTE ]
it's no more wrong than a Lion killing the cubs of another Lion's because it wants the female to have it's cubs instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't classify humans and animals in the same "category". The murder of a human is COMPLETELY different from the murder of an animal. I really don't want to have to bust out any of my Ethics 301.

twang

03-16-2005, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose your best friend had a brand-new, spankin' SNES. With Chrono Trigger still in the set and everything. Suppose you could steal it without him ever finding out it was you.

The risk/reward ratio is mathematically and precisely zero.

Would you do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

In short, no.

There are two reason why I wouldn't:

1. If I actually would steal his game, I can't figure out how I could get away with it. The risk would be far greater than the reward.

2. I would think that stealing his SNES would undermine the social contracts that keeps our society ticking and that this eventually would lead to the collapse of everything that is great about civilization. Basically, I don't want to contribute to making this world a suckier place than it already is. Obviously, the risk is far greater than the reward.

But since this is a hypothetical situation where no real world consequences or facts apply, I guess I would steal it, compensate him with a Porsche Boxter and then let his hot mom make sweet love to my 12-incher (while he was out driving the Porsche of course). /images/graemlins/smile.gif

/twang

Victor

03-16-2005, 05:33 PM

why dont i go around killing people and stealing?

the same reason i dont eat mcdonalds.

i dont want to. it doesnt make me feel good

ThisHo

03-16-2005, 06:19 PM

Once again -- thanks for the thoughtful exchange.

[ QUOTE ]
As I understand it, though (and correct me if I'm wrong), all of mankind is still held accountable for Original Sin, or Applegate (the Eden kind, not Christina--I'd like to be held...nevermind. ). To atone for this sin, a person must accept Jesus as the Christ, be baptized, live a good life in accordance with the tenets of the Church, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
Semantics here but... a person can not atone for their own sins. Jesus Christ offers forgiveness/mercy/grace through his death on the cross. It his HIS deed alone that allows us to be forgiven of the sins. We can't make up for it.
To answer your question though - A person simply needs to accept Jesus as Lord to be forgiven. Baptism is NOT a requisite for entrance to heaven. It is a step that Christians are encouraged to take as it is an outward sign of your commitment to Christ, but it is not required. Living a life that follows the rules set out by Jesus/God in the Bible is not a requisite. As has been said previously by other posters - the basis of Christianity is really a relationship with Jesus/God where you are striving to follow His will for your life and He is providing guidance and blessings and discipline along the way. The relationship is often compared to a father and child. Its not about what you do - its about what you believe. If you believe that Jesus is your saviour, the Christ, and you are in relationship with Him then you are probably going to work on not doing the things that He has said are harmful to us and to our relationship with Him. Christianity does not require living in accordance with the Tenets of "The Church".

But how can you say that you are a follower of Jesus if you don't follow His rules? Well.... That's the thing, if you are a real/true follower of Jesus you're going to TRY to follow the plan that He lays out for your life. But don't get hung up on the rules. The New Testament Bible is actually very freeing. Paul's letters talk a LOT about Freedom in Christ. Are there things that are considered sinful, yes. Is everything that you think is considered sinful actually considered sinful, NO (see example in my last post about HAVING to go to church on Sunday -- not a requirement).

The point the Bible makes about sin is that we all have sinned. It doesn't distinguish that one sin is worse than any other and it doesn't state that commiting one sin (say cursing or lying) is less bad than committing 10,000 sins (say genocide). It says that sin is sin and that the wages of sin is death and that anyone who comes to Christ and confesses his sin and accepts Jesus as savior will be forgiven of whatever sin(s) have been committed. You are not then required to live a sinless life the rest of the way. You'll be forgiven even if you commit the same sin again and again -- provided you truely truely truely are repentant of the sin and that you truely have accepted Jesus into your heart and accepted his forgiveness and mercy. That part of it is strictly between you and God!

[ QUOTE ]
Not a trap at all, and I gave up trying to convert the masses a long time ago.

[/ QUOTE ]
VERY glad to hear this (that its not a trap).
Your point that right/wrong are somehow hard wired into us is valid. But here's my question : WHY are we hard-wired like that? Did our creator hard wire us that way? How did we become hard wired with a (very broad and general) sense of right and wrong?

[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally, and just for clarification's sake, the God of the Bible does command his followers to kill others, on a fairly regular basis. But only in the Old Testament; in the New Testament, we have the kinder, gentler Christian God who preaches love and compassion. This teaching has still been warped by sick individuals to justify murder throughout history, but this is true of any belief system, including atheism.

[/ QUOTE ]
hmmm.... my Old Testament is (embarrased to say) a bit rusty. There are LOTS of wars in the Old Testamant and God clearly commanded His chosen people (the Jews) to take the promised land that as their own.

You are correct that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE shift between the old and new testaments. Jesus came as the Messiah, the Son of God to fulfill the prophecies and the law of the old testament. Its not a "kinder gentler God", its the same God but reaching out to all of mankind through His only Son. The loving caring God is there in the old testament as well.

[ QUOTE ]
My own viewpoint, which is sadly not shared by the vast majority of the world's religions, is that there is no right or wrong faith--only a right or wrong way to live one's life. I do try to plant the odd seed of thought within a theist's mind, yes...but only so that they can think it over and come to their own conclusions on the subject.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is true that every religion believes that they are the ONE TRUE religion. I can't disagree with that at all. Its a part of religion and as I said before it all too often has led to conflicts in human history with tragic consequences.
[ QUOTE ]
This teaching has still been warped by sick individuals to justify murder throughout history

[/ QUOTE ]
YUP! We humans is jacked up man! Even those of us that follow Christ are jacked up and we do dumb dumb dumb things sometimes. This unfortunately muddles/skews the view of the Gospel... God Loves You! He wants to have relationship with you. He has a plan for your life. He loves you so much that He sent His Son to die for your sins.

I'll tell you one thing though... I'll give a different Wendy's a try one of these days! You've convinced me of that! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Enjoy your day!
ThisHo

dr_venkman

03-16-2005, 06:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
God Loves You! He wants to have relationship with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was young, about eight or so, I tried making friends with God by inviting him to my house to watch the world series...he never showed

~ Jim Carrol, "The Basketball Diaries"

ThisHo

03-16-2005, 06:27 PM

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ThisHo, you do realize your outlook allows for someone who lives a righteous life, like myself, to go to hell for eternal damnation, but a devout Catholic like Hitler to go to Heaven?

[/ QUOTE ]

Being a "devout Catholic" doesn't get you into heaven. Please reread what I wrote.
Simply attending mass, and other sacraments of the Catholic church do NOT get you into heaven. Accepting Christ as your savior - believing that He came to Earth as God's son and died on the cross to forgive you of your sin and allowing Him to be lord of your life... that get's you the grace/forgiveness/mercy of God and allows entrance to heaven.

You can't earn your way in... that's the message of the Gospels.

ThisHo

sexypanda

03-16-2005, 06:28 PM

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Religion is a dangerous, corrupt tool. One day people are going to realize morality and religion as being two seperate things.

[/ QUOTE ]

mythrilfox

03-16-2005, 07:10 PM

I define a devout Catholic as someone who has accepted Jesus Christ into their heart. I don't know what you define a devout Catholic as. Someone who does the deeds? Hitler did more than the motions, he did everything that the Bible teaches grants entrance to Heaven.

Sure, he killed 6 million people, but that's a forgiveable sin.

The Goober

03-16-2005, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are smart enough to not get caught committing the crime, why not do it? You will not be punished in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every time I hear a religious person say this, it makes me feel very sorry for them. Are you really so unfeeling that your only motivation is fear? Humans are a wonderfully evolved species and we have an innate sense of empathy for other humans. I don't (or try not to) do things that hurt other people. Why? Because as a human, I care about other people - its just an intrinsic part of who I am, and its in all of us.

I think the saddest part about christianity is that it takes the best qualities of humans away from us and attributes it to some other being.

ThisHo

03-16-2005, 09:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I define a devout Catholic as someone who has accepted Jesus Christ into their heart. I don't know what you define a devout Catholic as. Someone who does the deeds? Hitler did more than the motions, he did everything that the Bible teaches grants entrance to Heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me start with the "Devout Catholic" question. My point here is that going to mass, receiving communion, following the rituals of the Catholic Church are not enough to get you into heaven. The Bible teaches that you have to do 1 thing and 1 thing only to enter heaven : You have to have a personal relationship with Jesus as your Savior and Lord of your life. So it doesn't matter if you're Catholic/Baptist/Presbyterian/Non-Denominational/Evangelical
-- what matters is that you believe in Jesus. You truely believe that He is the Son of God that He came to Earth and died on the cross for your sins and that you accept him as your Savior and allow him sovereign control over your life. That's it... there isn't a mystical ceremony or any list of tasks that has to be done. Its faith in Jesus.

OK.. on the the Hitler question
{sigh} - why is it that when the forgiveness of Christ is brought up the "can God forgive Hitler" question always comes up? This seems to me the extreme test of the forgiveness of God. Can God accept into Heaven a man that was personally responsible for the torture and horrifying deaths of 6million people?

Here's the problem:
If I say "Yes. Assuming that Hitler realized what he did was wrong, repented (truely repented - not went to confession and confessed his sins to a priest and said eleventy-billion Hail Mary's as penance), but truely asked Jesus/God to forgive him, and truely believed that Jesus came to earth died on the cross for all the sins of mankind and then believed in Jesus as his savior, then YES. Hitler would be able to be in heaven. God's love and forgiveness for each and every one of us as individuals is THAT big. It surpasses all understanding."
Then you will likely respond -- OHHHHHH, so all I have to do is live my life however I want and right at the end of it say "Jesus I believe in you forgive me let me into heaven" (see #3 below for more on this item)... or "I refuse to believe in a God that will allow THAT man into heaven." or some other thing that ignores the real message of Jesus and the gospel which is that JESUS LOVES EACH OF US ENOUGH TO DIE FOR OUR SINS -- NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE!

BUT... I if I say "No, he couldn't be in Heaven," then you'll likely say "so... what is the cutoff? What if I kill one person? 10? 100? What if I rip off a bunch of old people? What if I steal $5 from my parents wallet? What is the sin that keeps me from heaven?"

So... here's my answer in multiple parts:
1 - I would submit to you that it would not be possible to TRUELY have a relationship with Jesus as your savior, to have Jesus in your heart, to have HIM as Lord of your life and at the same time plan the systematic torture and murder of 6million people. So no, I don't think that Hitler is in heaven
2 - Do I believe that God would have forgiven him if he truely in his heart of hearts asked for the forgiveness (and this really is the crux of the issue here... incerity. Not just "well, Jesus and God might be real, so let me say some prayer and cover my butt just in case") - then YES. I think that God would have forgiven him, would have allowed him into heaven. The Bible doesn't declare that any sin is bigger than any other sin, nor does it exclude anyone from heaven because of a specific sin. The forgiveness and mercy of Christ is the key!
3 - Jesus actually addresses the question of "is it ever too late to repent and be saved?" at 2 different times : First in a parable about workers in the field (I don't have my bible in front of me and don't have the exact passages, though I'll add them tonight) - there are 3 sets of workers, all start at different times and at the end of the day all are paid the same. Second, while on the cross, one of the robbers hung with Jesus asks for forgiveness and Jesus tells him that he will be with him in Heaven that day. Its never too late to repent. The key is not "cover my butt prayer time!" its true belief and true conversion.

I want to add one other point here --- Jesus doesn't just offer entry to Heaven. Living your life as he leads you offers life to the fullest (not easy or perfect or devoid of worries, problems, stress -- to the fullest the most the best that it can be). My life is better since turning it over to Christ.

I hope this answers the question.

ThisHo

Harv72b

03-17-2005, 01:35 AM

re: the Hitler question.

Even if Hitler had repented in his last days, opened his heart up to Jesus & all that, Hitler's last act on Earth was to commit suicide. As I understand it, that in itself is a sin, and would prevent him from getting to heaven. Point is therefore moot.

[ QUOTE ]

To answer your question though - A person simply needs to accept Jesus as Lord to be forgiven. Baptism is NOT a requisite for entrance to heaven. It is a step that Christians are encouraged to take as it is an outward sign of your commitment to Christ, but it is not required. Living a life that follows the rules set out by Jesus/God in the Bible is not a requisite.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't doubt your own sincerity, but this goes against what I've been told by numerous other Christians, Catholics chief among them. A life without sin is not required, no, but I have never before heard that baptism was only encouraged. In fact, I have often heard the opposite--that if a person is not baptised, he/she will not gain entry to Heaven no matter what else they do. This may be dependent on your particular church, though; I have noticed that different congregations often interpret things in a different manner.

[ QUOTE ]
Your point that right/wrong are somehow hard wired into us is valid. But here's my question : WHY are we hard-wired like that? Did our creator hard wire us that way? How did we become hard wired with a (very broad and general) sense of right and wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

We were obviously not hard-wired like that, originally, at least if you believe the Biblical depiction of early man. You have Adam and Eve's transgression in the Garden of Eden, the story of Cain and Abel, Pharoah's murderous enslavement of the Israelites, and the immoral activities in Sodom and Gommorah, to name a few. I rather think that it is an evolutionary trait, which has grown into our subconsciousness as we became a societal race.

[ QUOTE ]
hmmm.... my Old Testament is (embarrased to say) a bit rusty.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should re-read it. I've read the Bible numerous times (not something most atheists have done), and I've found the books of the Old Testament to be fascinating in places. I personally think that the Book of Job is one of the greatest literary pieces in history.

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You are correct that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE shift between the old and new testaments. Jesus came as the Messiah, the Son of God to fulfill the prophecies and the law of the old testament. Its not a "kinder gentler God", its the same God but reaching out to all of mankind through His only Son. The loving caring God is there in the old testament as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really need to re-read the Old Testament. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif The core message definitely changes from one to the other, as does the personality of God. I will not speculate on why this is, because I know from experience that there are literally thousands of ways to explain it without blaspheming or implying that God changed (or that there are two different gods of the Bible).

[ QUOTE ]
You'll be forgiven even if you commit the same sin again and again -- provided you truely truely truely are repentant of the sin and that you truely have accepted Jesus into your heart and accepted his forgiveness and mercy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just had to point this out--do you see the contradiction in that sentence? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

motorholdem

03-17-2005, 03:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you do not believe in God, what factors influence you to not do things that are deemed evil, or wrong by people that believe in God? There has to be more reasons then "it is against the law that man made". Evil things can range from simple crimes of stealing from people, to murder. If you are smart enough to not get caught committing the crime, why not do it? You will not be punished in the end.

I do not know if anyone has predictions or more important statistics on this, but, has there been any studies that have tried to determine what percentage of people who commit crimes believe in a God. I guess a lot depends on economic situations for most people, but if you really believed you would be sent to Hell for commiting certain crimes would you be less likely to commit the crime then if you did not believe in Hell, or God.

[/ QUOTE ]

It’s hard to comprehend the level of thinking from which your comments emerge.

Just reflect a bit on what you posed.

“If you do not believe in God, what factors influence you to not do things that are deemed evil, or wrong by people that believe in God?”

Does this mean that you do “right” because of “God,” and wonder what kind of monster YOU would be without his guidance?

Here is what I ascertain from this one sentence

You assume that those things considered wrong by people who believe in God differ significantly from those things considered wrong by people who do NOT believe in God. I believe that in general, most atheists (and non-atheists) instinctively or intuitively know right from wrong, and behave accordingly.

Let me pose a question to you. Would you be surprised to know that atheists are very glad that region exists? It helps protect us from the senseless and selfish behavior of some (and I emphasize “some”) individuals who might otherwise engage in activities that would be harmful to others if they had no doctrine or internal moral compass to guide their behavior.

Based on you comment above, I truly hope you NEVER stop believing in God.

jimdmcevoy

03-17-2005, 12:36 PM

I've read some posts here (not all of em some are long) and I think there is something everyone is missing as part of the reason atheists don't go around killing people when they feel like it.

Part of the reason is our intincts.

I reckon that we've evolved to want to not kill random people we meet. From an evolutionary perspective it's -EV except in certain circumtances to kill a random human.

I also think we've evolved to want to kill other people in certain situations, like war. Organized killing like this can be +EV from an evolutionary perspective.

But I'm going a little off topice here, my point is that we are born with the urge not to kill some random dude we meet, and I think most people are just coming up with reasons to explain why they don't want to kill people, like there was actually a time in there life when they would kill people for little reason, and then they thought it through, and logically came to the conlusion that they shouldn't

this thought process reminds me of how religious people start off believing in whatver religion they believe in for whatever reason, and then use their higher conciousness to try and prove what they believe in, instead of using their higher conciousness to figure out what to believe

/end rant

Dan Rutter

03-17-2005, 05:44 PM

I am not assuming anything. You can know the difference between right and wrong and not act on it. Also someone can have much less motivation in his or her own mind to act on the right side of things. One of these motivations could be so they do not have to spend their afterlife in hell. People who believe in a God may have all the same reasons that Atheists have to act correctly in terms of right and wrong. This could be keeping humanity going in the right direction as some have mentioned, or not putting a burden on their family once they die. They also probably have an extra incentive that since they believe in an afterlife they do not want to spend it in Hell.

I am not suggesting people who believe in a God are less likely to commit crimes, because obivously that is not the case. I was asking a question, not suggesting anything. I guess you could simple my question down to apply to Atheists, and people who believe in God.

With no threat of punishment for your actions, what stops you from acting in ways that may be wrong or evil in the eyes of other humans?

toots

03-17-2005, 06:00 PM

I have a few gut reactions to the base question:

1) Childish.

Doing good or bad based mainly on fear/anticipation of punishment/reward is the most infantile level of moral behavior, and most people outgrow it before becoming adults

2) Arrogant

The question seems to assume that your big boogey man in the sky somehow gives you a corner on the morality market. It doesn't.

3) Shallow

It doesn't take too many thought processes for a person, even one operating at a relatively childish level of development, to realize the reciprocal benefits of adhering to the golden rule.

But, to answer the question directly:

Why would I, as a non-god believing person, act in ways that you consider "good" or "moral"?

Well, assuming we can agree on at least the big strokes (don't kill people, don't take their stuff, treat people with respect and dignity):

1) Enlightened self-interest. I treat others as I'd like to be treated as part of a social contract by which we all benefit.

2) Compassion. As a feeling human being, I know how much I dislike being hurt, and having compassion, I therefore have little desire to make someone else feel that hurt, even if I think they might deserve it.

3) Narcissism. I just don't want people to think I'm a poopiehead, and one of the best ways to do that is to avoid acting like one.

4) Instinct. As others have mentioned, there is some evolutionary imperative that makes our race just slightly more successful if we don't all kill each other off before we've even had a chance to spawn.

I'm sure there are others, but acting in a bad or evil way is every bit as much against my nature as I'm sure it is against your nature, and those reasons are just as compelling as "because god told me."

motorholdem

03-18-2005, 03:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am not assuming anything. You can know the difference between right and wrong and not act on it. Also someone can have much less motivation in his or her own mind to act on the right side of things. One of these motivations could be so they do not have to spend their afterlife in hell. People who believe in a God may have all the same reasons that Atheists have to act correctly in terms of right and wrong. This could be keeping humanity going in the right direction as some have mentioned, or not putting a burden on their family once they die. They also probably have an extra incentive that since they believe in an afterlife they do not want to spend it in Hell.

I am not suggesting people who believe in a God are less likely to commit crimes, because obivously that is not the case. I was asking a question, not suggesting anything. I guess you could simple my question down to apply to Atheists, and people who believe in God.

With no threat of punishment for your actions, what stops you from acting in ways that may be wrong or evil in the eyes of other humans?

[/ QUOTE ]

But your question is prefaced with the clause, "with no threat of punsihment for your actions...."

You are trying to set a context for one's actions by linking the answer to a fear of punishment.

This is one key area where Chritianity falls down for me - too much emaphasis is placed on fear of consequences rather than doing good ONLY for the sense of good.

I was a Christian and now I am not. So, I can say that from my perspective my "self-awareness" of right and wrong never really changed whether I believed in God or I did not. I like to think of myself as an honest person, and try to approach life that way. When I fail, I feel ashamed for letting MYSELF down. I think it is a much stronger motivation when you are answerable to yourself for your actions. I can't get wired up to be accountable to a higher being that I have no reason to believe exists. So, that's what keeps me from being evil - an obligation to myself.

As an aside, why would I seek guidance from a God who (in my view, if he exists) does not seem to accept accountabity for his actions. If I understand Christianity correctly, God created all things, and God is good. Yet an angel turned bad an become the devil. Who created that angel and gave it the capacity to do evil? The creator of all things, God.

Perhaps the big guy should have fixed this part up before he moved on, but somehow we all have been required to atone for the angels "sins" in a way I'm not quite sure I quite understand. If god shows up and said" sorry folks, I need to do a recall on one of the angels," then maybe I'll have some time for him. But right now he seems to be ducking out on his repsonsibility - or more accurately, dumping it onto mankind. As such, I'm not so inclined to seek guidance from him on right from wrong. And, if he wants to punsish me for that, well this "loving" God can go right ahead and do so.