Standard?

[Scuba Chuck]

How different is this from Citanul's post from yesterday?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t625)
Button (t2043)
SB (t590)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t527)
MP1 (t820)
MP2 (t1895)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t30, Hero calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t150</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t625 (All-In)</font>, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: t835

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
BB (t1500)
UTG (t527)
MP1 (t820)
MP2 (t1895)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, 9.
2 folds, MP2 calls t30, Hero calls t30, 1 fold, SB completes, BB raises to t150, MP2 folds, Hero raises to t625 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't read Citanul's post, but this seems wreckless to me. I don't see BB folding here very often after he raises to 150 with 3 others in the pot and has you covered by 900 chips. Additionally BB has a 1500 stack on level 2- this is probably because he is a loose fish that got lucky or a good player that caught a good hand and doubled through. You don't want to push over either of these players at this stage.

[microbet]

my opinion + a whiney good beat post

I fold to the raise unless he had been doing that over and over and over, eventhough last night the two times I ran across uber-aggressive bastards they had KK and QQ when I raised them.

[Phil Van Sexton]

I find it hard to believe that Scuba was the hero in this hand unless he has a read on the BB that he isn't sharing.

If you did do this, I may have to start avoiding you in the 30s/50s.

[citanul]

Why would you say you would have to start avoiding him?

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you say you would have to start avoiding him?

[/ QUOTE ]

He is normally fairly weak-tight at levels 1-3. I don't mind playing good players that are predictable.

If he starts making plays like this, he will be quite dangerous at all levels. I can't say whether his ROI will be better, but he will definately be more dangerous to play against.

Edit: As usual, Paul Phillips (http://extempore.livejournal.com/57543.html) explains it better than I did.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
If you did do this, I may have to start avoiding you in the 30s/50s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean we've been playing each other?

[curtains]

btw I know a lot of people here advocate limping with pairs like TT-99 in the first 2 rounds, and I am part of this school of thought MOST of the time. However with such a short stack and one late position limper, no way I'm only limping for 5% of my stack with 99.

[microbet]

His stack is borderline for me, but I think I still limp.

With a large enough stack it is a clear limp and with a small enough stack it is a clear push. I think that is true for both of us and most players. (I'm talking about early on with a lot of players at the table - later it might just be a raise)

If I'm in the grey area between these two states I might fold. What do you do in the grey area?

[BigHobo]

I used to push in those situations.

I don't do that anymore. I fold those now.

[Apathy]

I'm surprised noone has mentioned it yet but whenever people limp in AFTER a limper and then raise all in they *never* have a premium hand, at least not that I have ever seen.

I frequently call people who do this and find my AKo or QQ or whatever against suited connectors and the like. I would never fold 10's or up, and I'm not sure many other people on party would either unless they see this type of limp raise as a premium hand (which they would't if they had any sense).

So I think you probably had the best hand pre-flop here scuba, and the SB tried to pick up the pot with air. Either that or you got lucky and they believed you.

Also I like the limp, but raising with your stack size is ok too.

[Degen]

Horrible move. Too early in the tourney, and though you may feel shortstacked...665 is plenty. Fold to the raise. Consider folding PF w/out limping.

Degen

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Also I like the limp, but raising with your stack size is ok too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps this is weak, but I don't have a whole lot of interest in picking up the blinds here for cheap. I like to cook the pot a little, let it simmer, and hopefully ladle out a set...

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you did do this, I may have to start avoiding you in the 30s/50s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean we've been playing each other?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only a few times.

Of course, party's fastest-finger signup process makes it almost impossible to avoid people even if I wasn't kidding.

[yecul]

It's certainly a push or fold situation. I'd have to defer to a read you might have had, but it's pretty risky.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised noone has mentioned it yet but whenever people limp in AFTER a limper and then raise all in they *never* have a premium hand, at least not that I have ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't Scuba the one that limped after a limper and then raised allin?

[Apathy]

that is my point...

[microbet]

Did I ever mention I'm not the brightest bulb on the christmas tree?

[Scuba Chuck]

I've been playing the $25 NLHE tables on party the past 3 days. Totally a different animal. I think you can play different at those games than these.

Anyway, my point is, how does the forum view this play as different than Citanul's post from yesterday? Citanul's post: Standard? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=192 5743&amp;Forum=,All_Forums,&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit= 25&amp;Main=1924486&amp;Search=true&amp;where=&amp;Name=3979&amp;dater ange=&amp;newerval=&amp;newertype=&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bo dyprev=#Post1925743)

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
His stack is borderline for me, but I think I still limp.

With a large enough stack it is a clear limp and with a small enough stack it is a clear push. I think that is true for both of us and most players. (I'm talking about early on with a lot of players at the table - later it might just be a raise)

If I'm in the grey area between these two states I might fold. What do you do in the grey area?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused what you mean about the grey area? Are you saying you'd fold 99 preflop? I definitely without a doubt like raising here preflop and I don't think it's so close. The limper is just from way too late a position for me to limp with such a strong hand.

[microbet]

Well, let's just make this hypothetical, because I'm not really talking about this exact situation and I usually have this problem with 66-88.

When there are deep stacks, a lot of people at the table, limpers or likely limpers later it seems pretty clear that medium or medium small PP is a limp.

When there are few players, you have fold equity, blinds are higher they become a raise or a push if you are not deep stacked.

What about in the middle? Sometimes it seems too dangerous to raise and there are not enough implied odds to limp. Do you fold there? If so, how high a PP would you fold? I'm talking about when there is no raise before you in all cases.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, my point is, how does the forum view this play as different than Citanul's post from yesterday? Citanul's post: Standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

The posts have the same title. I think they both involved cards and betting and stuff. Other than that, they seem completely different. Maybe I'm confused.

[curtains]

Could you possibly give an exact situation that seems like a close call to you?