The UK needs to allow concealed weapons (guns) ....

[Broken Glass Can]

to help prevent tragedies like this from happening. (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/17262526)

[jaxmike]

Why? Without guns there is no crime. Wait. Sorry, without guns there is no defense against crime. So yes, I agree with you.

[jcx]

In fairness, a concealed weapon may or may not have saved this man (If he was ambushed). The most troubling item for me is that bystanders could do absolutely nothing to help except plead with the killer to stop. The axe wielder was able to act without fear since he knew no one had a gun (Or if they did have one would be petrified of using it as they would get hauled off to jail as well - probably to face a stiffer sentence than the murderer).

[Utah]

Minnesota allowed concealed guns a year ago. I was strongly opposed to the measure. However, facts speak for themselves and there has been no seeable problems with allowing concealed guns.

[cardcounter0]

I am in favor of legally being able to carry a firearm, but thinking that this is magically going to make stuff like this not happen is foolish.

[CORed]

If guns were legal in great britain, somebody might have been able to stop it. Then again, maybe the perp would have used a gun instead of an axe to commit the murder in the first place. I'm in favor of the right to keep and bear arms, but it's really hard to say how this particular incedent would have gone down if the UK didn't have the gun laws that they do.

[thatpfunk]

You are right, there is absolutely no crime in the states that allow concealed weapons.

Oh, wait...

ignorance is bliss i guess.

[MtSmalls]

The only problem with this attitude the reality that handguns (or for that matter just about any gun) are not defensive weapons, outside of the home. If you get mugged, are you going to be given the opportunity to reach under your coat or around your back to draw your gun?

Someone argued that a bystander could have reacted by shooting the assailant, but if guns were that prevalent, the assailant probably would have used a gun as well.

The bystanders COULD have reacted by attacking the assailant, en masse, but didn't. Having or not having handguns made no difference in this case.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
You are right, there is absolutely no crime in the states that allow concealed weapons.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, but the violent crime rate is often lower and usually begins to decline after CC laws go into effect.

[stealyourface]

This is no arguement for concealed weapons in my opinion.

A man got murdered so we need to allow people to carry a gun under their coats?

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
The only problem with this attitude the reality that handguns (or for that matter just about any gun) are not defensive weapons, outside of the home. If you get mugged, are you going to be given the opportunity to reach under your coat or around your back to draw your gun?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why don't you ask one of the millions of people who use cc guns every year? I'm sure they'll tell you.

[HDPM]

[ QUOTE ]
This is no arguement for concealed weapons in my opinion.

A man got murdered so we need to allow people to carry a gun under their coats?

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than the fact it is an absolute human right. See, I am moderate. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[NotInchoateHand1]

"Millions of people who use cc guns every year?"

Where is this factoid coming from? I am 100% sure that "millions" of people do not interdict crime with cc guns a year.

[HDPM]

Millions of people carry concealed. Estimates are that up to 500,000 crimes per year are stopped by a citizens' use of a gun. This is hard to estimate since manny of these do not involve concealed carry and many are never reported. So there is some dispute about the stats. Of course, most people who carry never have occasion to display or use a weapon.

[BCPVP]

Oops, should have said gun use. Not necessarily ccw, but many ccw's have been used. Here's (http://www.guncite.com/kleckandgertztable1.html) a site that lists various surveys that were done to show how prevalent defensive gun use is.
Admittedly, this site is in favor of legalizing CCW. But even if you want to discount all of their information, you cannot discount the extremely low rate that CCW permit holders are arrested. In the first 6 years of allowing CCW's in Florida, over 200,000 were issued but only 17 revoked (and not necessarily for violent crime involving their cc). The fact is, there's no reason not to allow CCW, and almost all, if not all, the reasons opponents give turn out to be patently false.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
I am in favor of legally being able to carry a firearm, but thinking that this is magically going to make stuff like this not happen is foolish.

[/ QUOTE ]

[partygirluk]

There are many good arguments for the right to own a gun. Personally, I think on balance you should not be allowed to. But using this case as ammunition for the pro-gun lobby is imbecilic, and just goes to show how close minded you are.

This happened where i live. Stuff like this is thankfully uncommon. Anyone who commits this act is severely mentally unstable. Even you really think that he wouldn't have tried to do it for fear or being shot, then you are either naive or an idiot. There is no way a society can stop someone hell bent on murder achieving their goal, bar lobotomising the whole country, keeping them all in prison cells etc. Just recently some guy went into a Church in the US and killed about 10 people with a gun. You just can't stop these people. If the guy in the Church was wielding an Axe instead, he probably would have been stopped having killed far fewer people. But then if the parishioners all had brought a gun with them to church, it might have been fewer still. It is a complicated issue, but political/ethical nuances is clearly not your forte.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way a society can stop someone hell bent on murder achieving their goal, bar lobotomising the whole country, keeping them all in prison cells etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If the guy in the Church was wielding an Axe instead, he probably would have been stopped having killed far fewer people. But then if the parishioners all had brought a gun with them to church, it might have been fewer still.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is it? /images/graemlins/confused.gif
If it is possible to stop/reduce the number of murders through CCW laws, why not enact them? Especially when considering how insignificant the number of CCW holders actually do anything illegal.

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is no way a society can stop someone hell bent on murder achieving their goal, bar lobotomising the whole country, keeping them all in prison cells etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If the guy in the Church was wielding an Axe instead, he probably would have been stopped having killed far fewer people. But then if the parishioners all had brought a gun with them to church, it might have been fewer still.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is it? /images/graemlins/confused.gif
If it is possible to stop/reduce the number of murders through CCW laws, why not enact them? Especially when considering how insignificant the number of CCW holders actually do anything illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have any statistics showing that guns reduce murder I would like to see them please. I have an open mind. The murder rate is pretty low in the U.K.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
This is no arguement for concealed weapons in my opinion.

A man got murdered so we need to allow people to carry a gun under their coats?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am directing this comment regarding the United States, as I do not think it fit to comment on another country's domestic laws except when they infringe greatly on basic human rights, unlike the herd of euros who feel it a daily necessity to comment on America's domestic matters.

Regarding carrying firearms under your coat, every American has the right to walk down any street in America with a holstered gun on his/her hip in plain sight as long as you are not brandishing & flourishing or threatening. While you might still get hassled by police who claim they are investigating a complaint from someone who is 'afraid', you cannot legally be prevented from doing so and no bogus conviction for any such harrassment would stick if you fought it.

Since under the law of every state, you have the right to use deadly force when you believe someone is trying to kill/maim/rape you, then you should be able to use effective means to do so. With the prevalence of gun-toting gang bangers/general lowlifes/maniacs, the only effective means to defend yourself against deadly force is usually going to be a handgun unless you are a heavy weight boxer or blackbelt. Hence the need to be able to carry a concealed weapon.

If you want to trust bystanders to help you, or the police to magically appear in the nick of time when in such a situation, then I am offerring you a once in a lifetime investment option in the Brooklyn Bridge.

[BCPVP]

A couple studies (http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html)

More info (http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html)

And more (http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html)

Google "defensive gun use" for more info. Also be aware that while not all DGU's prevent murder, they, by definition, prevent some form of crime.

A great book you might want to thumb through would be David Kopel's The Samurai, The Mountie, and the Cowboy. It takes a look at several countries with different approaches to gun control, from Japan's no-guns to Switzerlands everyone-has-guns. Towards the end, it makes the case that neither side should start pointing towards other countries forms of gun control because those countries have different societies and histories that dictate their policy.

Enjoy. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[El Barto]

Mayor John Street: Too many people get gun-carry permits in city (http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/11147978.htm)

IF AND WHEN Mayor Street sits down with the governor and leaders in the General Assembly to discuss the "crisis" of gun violence in the city, Street may ask for a tough new law restricting concealed handguns.

Street said he's "concerned and frustrated" by the number of concealed gun permits that are being issued in the city and that he may decide by Monday to order a moratorium on new permits.

The mayor's flurry of words came on a day when he called in his top police commanders to consider how to cope with an ugly outbreak of bloody killings across the city.

At the same time, Street sent a letter to Gov. Rendell asking for help in dealing with state gun law "that handcuffs our ability to regulate the sale of guns in Philadelphia."

But Street was quick to defend Police Commissioner Sylvester Johnson, saying he "firmly and fully and completely and totally" supports Johnson.

Over the weekend, the city experienced 11 homicides, including a mother who killed two of her children and a 9-year old who was fatally shot in the chest as he sat in a mini-van. Speaking at a City Council budget hearing yesterday, Johnson said there have been 71 homicides in 74 days as of Monday. Asked what's happening, a somber Johnson said, "I don't know what's going on."

Though 80 percent of the murders involved handguns, that's about all that's clear.

Johnson said that 29 were the result of "arguments" generally about money and women, 19 have undetermined causes, seven were drug related, three were domestic, two were residential robberies and one each were sexual related and child abuse. But that left nine cases without a category.

Street said the pattern of killings is so varied that in most instances police would have great difficulty preventing the carnage. But he said he ordered Johnson to make a thorough review of the cases.

"We're never too proud to circle the wagons and go back to determine whether we can do things better," Street said. On Monday, the mayor will review whatever recommendations Johnson offers.

Street wants to put together a Philadelphia delegation including District Attorney Lynne Abraham to go to Harrisburg. And at the heart of Street's plans will be a frontal assault on Harrisburg, the keeper of all gun laws.

In his letter to Rendell, Street noted that Harrisburg has been quick to pass special legislation affecting the city, often against the city's wishes.

Gun regulation is another "special need," Street said. "We need tighter controls not only to protect our children and families but also to protect our law enforcement officers who are at risk every day," Street wrote.

He also told Rendell that the city has 28,000 active carry permits, compared to just 16,000 in New York City.

"We were compelled to issue more gun permits in Philadelphia in one year, 2003, than there are permits in the entire state of New Jersey," Street asserted.

If he had his way, Street said he would deal with handguns roughly the same way he wants to restrict second-hand cigarette smoke - a virtual ban.

Street said he sees few reasons for people to be packing heat in an urban setting. "For what? Why are they carrying? They're not hunters."

Though the list of carry permits is peppered with the names of politicians and judges, Street said it's not for him. "I've always been very reluctant personally about carrying a weapon," Street said. "Part of it is that I'm fortunate to have the common sense to understand that if you have a gun you might use a gun."

The mayor is considering a 90-day moratorium on issuing carry permits or simply reducing the staff of 12 police officers who now handle the work to some smaller number, thereby slowing the process.

In October 1995, the General Assembly eliminated Philadelphia's authority to set its own standards for carry permits, placing the city on the same footing as the rest of the state.

When the police department handled the matter, Johnson said staff conducted a thorough background check on the individual who also was required to justify the carry request. By contrast, Johnson said Pennsylvania now has "the most lenient gun laws in the entire country. You can't do this in New York or the state of New Jersey."

Johnson said current law enables a gun buyer to distribute 10 guns to 10 people.

"If a crime occurs using one of those guns, the person who bought them has no responsibility. That has to change. He should be responsible for that gun at least to the point if its missing or stolen that he has to report it right away," Johnson said.

But is the gun violence washing over this city related in any way to the carry permits held by 28,000 Philadelphians? Street balked at the question, instead arguing that there are just too many handguns in the city.

The issue, he said, is that in other states, "you may have a permit to have a gun in your home but that doesn't mean you are authorized to carry it as you walk all around the streets."

And how does he expect to convince a gun-loving legislature to carve out a special legal zone for the state's largest city?

"When you get enough tragedy, people will soften their position and they will understand the rationale for curbing the availability of these guns," Street said. "We are going to have to keep fighting this fight."

[BluffTHIS!]

Regarding the Philadelphia mayor it is one thing to limit availability of guns to criminals, it is another thing entirely to extrapolate that to mean law-abiding citizens who wish to defend themselves should be limited in their ability to both buy and carry guns. The only statistic that would be of any value is the number of gun crimes committed by concealed carry holders, which I'm willing to bet is negligible. This mayor has it ass-backwards which is why the state limited that city's ability to set it's own policies regarding such matters.

[BCPVP]

Just to echo some things that BluffThis mentioned, this mayor clearly overreacting. The very quote that said he's "concerned and frustrated" about the numbers of permits being issued is very telling. I wonder if it ever occurred to this mayor that perhaps the reason more people ar requesting CCW permits is precisely because of this wave of violence? DUH!!

[ QUOTE ]
If he had his way, Street said he would deal with handguns roughly the same way he wants to restrict second-hand cigarette smoke - a virtual ban.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pretty much sums it up. This isn't about concealed carry. This is about banning the right for people to defend themselves in public.

[ QUOTE ]
Street said he sees few reasons for people to be packing heat in an urban setting. "For what? Why are they carrying? They're not hunters."

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. I have to seriously question the intelligence of the city that voted this imbecile into office. Perhaps the reason people would like to be have CCW permits is the same reason the police would like to have their sidearms. Protection. DUH!!! It is hard for me to fathom that this man could genuinely not think of any reason why people might want to carry concealed weapons. If he genuinely doesn't know of any reasons, he should [censored] ASK SOMEONE WHO HAS BOUGHT ONE!!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Though the list of carry permits is peppered with the names of politicians and judges, Street said it's not for him. "I've always been very reluctant personally about carrying a weapon," Street said. "Part of it is that I'm fortunate to have the common sense to understand that if you have a gun you might use a gun."

[/ QUOTE ]
If he doesn't want to personally carry a firearm, fine. But he probably has police officers follow him when he makes public speeches, and I have little doubt that they are in fact armed. That this man would deny the people he governs the ability to protect themselves is incredible. And boy oh boy am I having a hard time figuring out which side of the ideological spectrum he falls on... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The issue, he said, is that in other states, "you may have a permit to have a gun in your home but that doesn't mean you are authorized to carry it as you walk all around the streets."

[/ QUOTE ]
HELLO??!! IS ANYBODY HOME?!
That's the whole [censored] point! What good does having a concealed weapon in your house do if you are attacked on your way to your car?! Either this guy is one of the stupidest politicians to EVER be elected or he playing dumb in order to enforce his asinine view of how the world works on the public. I don't care how popular he is; it is next to impossible to convince people that they should give up the right defend themselves ( a right I might add that is legal no matter what part of the country you live in) especially when there is a wave of violence that is being perpetrated by (and I'm about 99.9999999% positive on this) illegal gun owners who don't have CCW permits. If he does pass this anti-freedom anti-self defense bill, he will literally be signing the death warrants for more people, not less.

[ QUOTE ]
"We are going to have to keep fighting this fight."

[/ QUOTE ]
God help this city if he wins. Because the mayor certainly won't be.

/end rant.

[HDPM]

You are mistaken as to whether open carry is allowed everywhere. You will do a lot of time if you try this in many places.

[BluffTHIS!]

You misread my post. I did not say concealed carry is allowed everywhere (I know it's not just believe it should be). What I said was that you have the right to openly wear a holstered firearm anywhere in public (other than places like courthouses etc where it is banned).

[HDPM]

[ QUOTE ]
You misread my post. I did not say concealed carry is allowed everywhere (I know it's not just believe it should be). What I said was that you have the right to openly wear a holstered firearm anywhere in public (other than places like courthouses etc where it is banned).

[/ QUOTE ]


Sure. Try it in Chicago and tell me how you enjoyed Cook County Jail. Then try it in NYC and Washington D.C. Please report back on how it goes. It is illegal many places and you will do time. Always check local laws and obey them. The laws are wrong, but you have to follow them.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You misread my post. I did not say concealed carry is allowed everywhere (I know it's not just believe it should be). What I said was that you have the right to openly wear a holstered firearm anywhere in public (other than places like courthouses etc where it is banned).

[/ QUOTE ]


Sure. Try it in Chicago and tell me how you enjoyed Cook County Jail. Then try it in NYC and Washington D.C. Please report back on how it goes. It is illegal many places and you will do time. Always check local laws and obey them. The laws are wrong, but you have to follow them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please support your claims that it is illegal in those places to walk down the street with a holstered weapon on your hip in plain sight and not concealed providing that you have complied with all laws regarding the purchase and registration of said firearm (registration is not the same as possessing a concealed carry permit if available in that state).

[Dead]

Are you kidding? It is illegal to carry a loaded gun outside your house in the places that he just named.

In fact, in DC's case, you can't even own a handgun there, unless you're a cop or owned one prior to 1976.

No wonder crime is out of control there. Get a few guns into people's hands and you'll see the muggings plummet. I'd like to see a few muggers get shot and then maybe they'll get the picture.

[andyfox]

I agree. Smartly dressed axemen are a major problem that allowing concealed guns would certainly put to a stop.

[thatpfunk]

shhh... andy, making sense is not allowed in this forum!

[jaxmike]

you know good and well that he didnt make any sense. in fact, he supports my argument more than the antigun argument. people kill people, not guns.

[Dead]

Don't start that semantical bs in here. I'm for gun rights but give me a break. People USE guns to kill people.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
People USE guns to kill people.

[/ QUOTE ]
People use many items to kill one another. Pigeonholing guns as merely bringers-of-death shows a poor understanding and ignorant view of guns. Furthermore, the characterization that gun death is wrong is absurd. Many people are killed by guns that should be (i.e. police/civilian shootings of threatening criminals)
In the end, guns are a tool and not possessive of qualities of good or evil. That is left up to the wielder.

[Dead]

I never said that a gun has to be good or evil to kill people.

Bears and alligators kill people sometimes. It doesn't make them good or evil. They aren't capable of advanced thought.

But maybe the gator was just protecting his property by eating those 15 people.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
I never said that a gun has to be good or evil to kill people.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't aiming this at you. But there are those that think guns are "bad" or "evil". Which is absurd.

[Dead]

I think that conservatives are bad. Is that absurd?

[BCPVP]

yes