First time for everything

[fsuplayer]

6 max 1000NL

game is awesome. a 78/55 is on my right raising 90% of his hands pf, and he has over 5k.

main villian is UTG+1 and a 28/8. have played w him before. hes okay, but unimaginative.

villian raises to $35, crazy LAG just calls, i pot it to $130 to go w. KK.

villian thinks for a second and makes it $420 w $1600 left behind.

i have him covered and fold.

and it felt great.

fsuplayer

[KaneKungFu123]

if a non regular made this post they'd get flamed.

[chuddo]

fsu,
extra reason being the capped buy-in means you want to keep a 2k+ stack in order to make a double through the deep-stacked maniac more profitable?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
if a non regular made this post they'd get flamed.

[/ QUOTE ]are you saying that you would call?

[Loci]

Impressive, Sir Seminole...
I like it for two reasons:
1. You've clearly got a solid read on your opponent who won't bet/reraise without the goods.
2. Even if he has QQ, A/K, (or the other KK) by your description of the table arrangement, you're set up perfectly to run the table. You can't push because of a clear AA threat and if you call you're looking at an all in on the flop from him almost regardless of what falls. Why go in the hole in a good game by playing a single hand's percentage?
Very impressive.
Ez

[-Skeme-]

What exactly do the numbers in 78/55 mean? VP$IP & how often Villain raises? Or he overall aggression factor? Thanks.

[aggie]

FSU, I have great respect for your posts, but don't like this fold at all

[soah]

Why not?

[aggie]

Let me elaborate...Assuming vilian has a decent stack, you're getting 2.5-1 on this call...If you know villian has AA, you can probably call your 2-outer for implied odds alone....And you can't be sure the opponent has AA so i think this is a clear call...Of course the problem is, you will be in a very tough spot on the flop.

Is my thinking flawed?

[zaxx19]

Good fold......I doubt he makes this play with QQ here so its probably AA. If not he played boldly and won a relatively small pot good for him.

[greg nice]

[ QUOTE ]
you can probably call your 2-outer for implied odds alone....

[/ QUOTE ]

you have to call $300 and you can only win $1600. youre 8:1 to hit the flop. implied odds are only a little more than 5:1

[aggie]

yea, i was a little off on my math...You've got to pay 290 (getting a little better than 2-1), to win 1600 (which is 5.5-1)....and you are about a 6-1 dog to flop a set....But i think those odds, combined with the fact that the opponent may not have AA, combined with the fact that we are in position, should be enough reason to make this call...I certainly am not sure of myself on this one though...I would be interested to hear what Diablo has to say about this hand

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
and you are about a 6-1 dog to flop a set...

[/ QUOTE ]

if he shows you aces you are a 6.6:1 dog to flop a set or better.

[JaBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
yea, i was a little off on my math...You've got to pay 290 (getting a little better than 2-1), to win 1600 (which is 5.5-1)....and you are about a 6-1 dog to flop a set....But i think those odds, combined with the fact that the opponent may not have AA, combined with the fact that we are in position, should be enough reason to make this call...

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is the difficulty with which you have to play the hand. On a flop of all unders, you're going to be pretty clueless. Sure you have position, but it's only going to be for one or two betting rounds max, and I doubt the opponent will give any information anyway. What if he just open pushes the flop no matter what? What has your position earned you then?

[fyodor]

If HERO is on the button I would just push preflop after villian's reraise. If HERO was SB then an option would be to call, and with no Ace on the flop, push then.

If I go bust I reload. Don't you just love guys like me at your table? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course the problem is, you will be in a very tough spot on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

out of position, with a huge pot, getting away from KK on a ragged flop will be very very tough.

also the fact i have to pretty much check fold on a board with an ace or queen on it.

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
If HERO is on the button I would just push preflop after villian's reraise. If HERO was SB then an option would be to call, and with no Ace on the flop, push then.

If I go bust I reload. Don't you just love guys like me at your table? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

pushing preflop, with or without position is just bad poker. if called, you wont see a worse hand, not with 250BB's going in the middle.

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
2. Even if he has QQ, A/K, (or the other KK) by your description of the table arrangement, you're set up perfectly to run the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

other than me being at least 75% sure he had AA, this was an overriding reason for my play.

i am all for making +EV plays no matter the bet sizes/stack sizes etc. but when I think a play is probably -EV, and it could kill a bunch of possible future +EV, it becomes a pretty easy fold.

[Parnish]

What was your image at the table at the time? From the Villain's point of view, your re-raise of the maniac doesn't necessarily indicate great strength; so he could very possibly make the bet he made with QQ/AK.

[fyodor]

Well the only way I'm folding KK here is if I know that villian would only play AA that way and nothing else. If I think he could also have AK or QQ then I want some of that money. I don't know this particular opponent but maybe you had that kind of read. I just know in at the nl $1000 I have seen many bad calls.

It's now sounding like you were one of the blinds and would get to act first on the flop. In that case I at the very least call his bet and see what the flop brings.

If you were button and he acts first on the flop, then he can throw in a big bet or push on an all rag flop and you don't know if he has AA or JJ or AK or what. That's why in that scenario I would push preflop. If he folds fine. If you think the only thing he calls with is AA fine. I haven't busted out of a tourney. I just reach into my pocket and keep playing.

[fsuplayer]

sry, it wasnt clear in my post. villian is utg+1 and I am SB i think (possibly BB).

[fyodor]

I should also say that there is a decent chance I am just in way over my head at this game. I am not so much giving advice as giving my opinion and if it is wrong I am happy to hear why.

I just noticed in another thread you saying a lot of the donkeys from last week are gone. If that's the case I may have to go to. I did notice that it wasn't so easy to just sit down at a table in the day time and find a bunch of bad players. Yesterday I played limit during the day and waited till after 9:00pm for the nl.

[HoldEm_Hero]

[ QUOTE ]






i have him covered
and it felt great.

fsuplayer

[/ QUOTE ]

You so nasty. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[kagame]

ive folded KK on UB a few times in the $2/4 game (to heavy multiway action) and felt really sick about it.

glad you feel more confident than i do in your reads.

what program are you getting those stats from btw? (please excuse the ignorance)

[Kaz The Original]

I think he's saying this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1928094&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=2#Post1932990) would happen.

[Loci]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Even if he has QQ, A/K, (or the other KK) by your description of the table arrangement, you're set up perfectly to run the table.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



other than me being at least 75% sure he had AA, this was an overriding reason for my play.

i am all for making +EV plays no matter the bet sizes/stack sizes etc. but when I think a play is probably -EV, and it could kill a bunch of possible future +EV, it becomes a pretty easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, impressive fold. I think too often players weigh the odds of a single hand against the overall EV+ of a well set up table. Plenty of time to break him over the long run; he's not going anywhere.
Keep playing player.
Ez

[daniel1222]

What happened?

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]

what program are you getting those stats from btw? (please excuse the ignorance)

[/ QUOTE ]

pokertracker (www.pokertracker.com) . best $55 you could ever spend.

[rtrombone]

[ QUOTE ]
That's why in that scenario I would push preflop. If he folds fine. If you think the only thing he calls with is AA fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Horrible.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
if a non regular made this post they'd get flamed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a 28/8 player? I think a fold isn't too bad. Not good either. Honestly, I'd take my coin and flip for all-in push or huge re-raise.

Lawrence

[kagame]

oh ok thanks, i wasnt aware it was used for more than statistical analysis of hand histories

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me elaborate...Assuming vilian has a decent stack, you're getting 2.5-1 on this call...If you know villian has AA, you can probably call your 2-outer for implied odds alone....And you can't be sure the opponent has AA so i think this is a clear call...Of course the problem is, you will be in a very tough spot on the flop.

Is my thinking flawed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Slightly. This heavily depends on the stack sizes. If the stacks are low, then easy call. If the stacks are very deep, then it's an easy call. It's when the stacks are somewhere in between say 100-150 BB, then the deicision becomes a bit more iffy due to implied odds and pot committments.

Lawrence

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I'd take my coin and flip for all-in push or huge re-raise.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]


why?

and whats difference?

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
why?

and whats difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, my last statement was ambigious. What I meant to say was coin flip for a huge-reraise/all-in or fold. So heads I push, tails I fold.

Lawrence

[fyodor]

I love some of the some of the brilliant analysis we see here at 2+2. Either "brilliant, brilliant play" or "horrible, horrilbe advice".

And then usually the tag line "do you see why?"

Ok maybe pushing is wrong. Why? Is it that clear villian has AA? Or is it playing post flop will be "difficult" so best to give up right now? So is the consensus that if you make a raise preflop and someone you consider to be a decent player comes over the top that you should lay down everything but AA? Is that the advice here? Seriously because I've said that at this game I may be in over my head and I would like to know. I should just lay down everything but AA if I am reraised preflop? And then I can be considered brilliant too instead of horrible.

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
So is the consensus that if you make a raise preflop and someone you consider to be a decent player comes over the top that you should lay down everything but AA?

[/ QUOTE ]


reducing the hand down to this is retarded.

[kagame]

retarded is a bit harsh. it seems logical for beginning deeper stack NL players to have a problem with the concept of knowing when to fold when youre behind.

there are all kinds of situations in big bet poker where you will be incorrect in not folding strong hands that you never ever would have considered folding in shallower games (sets, flushes on paired boards, overpairs even, etc)

usually the action will let you know, but that can be extremely expensive to find out. with KK/QQ/AK it can be very difficult to gauge where you are at when an opponent shows strength with a re-raise.

the fact is its really read dependent. he took the concept and extended it too far, but the concept was never clearly elucidated and wasnt at all limited in this discussion, except perhaps by lawrence.

[GFunk911]

[ QUOTE ]
I love some of the some of the brilliant analysis we see here at 2+2. Either "brilliant, brilliant play" or "horrible, horrilbe advice".

And then usually the tag line "do you see why?"

Ok maybe pushing is wrong. Why? Is it that clear villian has AA? Or is it playing post flop will be "difficult" so best to give up right now? So is the consensus that if you make a raise preflop and someone you consider to be a decent player comes over the top that you should lay down everything but AA? Is that the advice here? Seriously because I've said that at this game I may be in over my head and I would like to know. I should just lay down everything but AA if I am reraised preflop? And then I can be considered brilliant too instead of horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't a reraise. It was a 3rd substantial raise, a re-re-raise. Not that that makes it correct but it's a big difference

[fyodor]

Sorry fsu. just went back and reread the whold thread. Thank you.

[fsuplayer]

no biggie. i wasnt sure whether you were being an ass, or hadnt read the post right.

glad to see it was the latter. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[rtrombone]

There are some very basic poker, not no-limit, concepts at play here. What is the purpose of a bet? Basically, it's a bet for value (you want to be called by a worse hand), or a bluff (you want a better hand to fold). It's actually a little more complicated than this, but I think you get my drift. If you put your opponent on AA, KK, QQ, JJ or AK, and AA will always call if you stack off, and the others will always fold, your reraise with KK has zero value. All worse hands will fold and all better hands will call. Notice that your reraise has significantly more value if you have 72 in that you can get many better hands to fold.

If you cannot be certain that your opponent has AA, a better line is to call and be prepared to go to the felt postflop; let him bet your hand for you. This way you get the money in when your opponent has underpairs to your kings, and not only when he has aces.

[kagame]

first part of your post about not going all in if youre only going to be called by AA is so simple ill say its totally correct. congratulations. then you start to contradict yourself completely.

did you read this thread at all? youre putting all the money in when youre behind, but not when youre ahead. you DEFINITELY have to fold to any ace or queen. this is an extremely difficult flop scenario. and youre advocating a weak tight calling station strategy as an essential part of basic poker strategy.

well done sir.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
If you put your opponent on AA, KK, QQ, JJ or AK, and AA will always call if you stack off, and the others will always fold, your reraise with KK has zero value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are exagerating a little to prove your point...For instance, your reraise with KK has tremendous value if your opponent has AK and an A is coming on the flop. Maybe even more value when he has JJ, and a J comes on the flop (because you truely can't get off this hand).

So you make it sound like there are only 2 reasonble options (calling and folding) but i think a case can clearly be made for reraising. I'm not saying that reraising is the best option (as a matter of fact, i would call) but i think it's something that can certainly be considered.

[yoadrians]

KK can lose to many hands when there are five cards on the board. That's why I always fold them preflop /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I like the fold here, although there is one thing I worry about. If this is a long-term game, and we're going to be here for a while, have you just shown a huge sign of weakness?

For instance, say, 30 minutes after this hand, you have KK again, and the exact same thing happens to you (you get rereraised) - will you lay it down again? Or how about QQ? or AK? Will you lay down all these hands to a rereraise ... and does this give your Villain all the reason in the world to think that you will fold anything but AA to a rereraise?

Maybe it sounds like a silly question, but we haven't explored the "other" long-term implications of this fold at the table in this thread.

Should we?

Anyway, just wanted to explore the other side of this. But hey, you were at the table, you had a feel for it better than anyone who has posted, so if you like the laydown, then so do I.

[fsuplayer]

i am not worried too much about it. I dont think most of these players ever dream about folding KK preflop, so if i reraise and fold to a 3 bet, its not that big of a deal.

it wasnt the first time i reraised pf all night.

they prob thought i was thinking and folded JJ, QQ or AKs.

btm line, these games are pretty aggressive so reraising and folding to a three bet happens. (but my particular opponent wasnt agg., which is why i liked folding).

[ObnxNole]

i have him covered and fold.

and it felt great.
I think there is a seat at my six table if you would like to play.... And I will make sure to cover you. You HACK! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[HoldEm_Hero]

Wow. Your so good. Folded Kings preflop. You must be the messiah of online texas hold em'. Pre-madonna.

[HoldEm_Hero]

Sounds like your getting a little too big for your britches. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kagame]

Holdem Hero, oh wise one, tell us again how having the nuts makes you impervious to outdraws.

good grief

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
i have him covered and fold.

and it felt great.
I think there is a seat at my six table if you would like to play.... And I will make sure to cover you. You HACK! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


funny, bc he is my roommate and annoying best friend.


[ QUOTE ]
Wow. Your so good. Folded Kings preflop. You must be the messiah of online texas hold em'. Pre-madonna.

[/ QUOTE ]

not funny, bc well, its not clever, or an inside joke.

[HoldEm_Hero]

That comment was pertaining only to the previous posters remark with sarcasm, have a little backgroung before you go sticking your nose places moron.

[HoldEm_Hero]

My comment was typed with the utmost fear and jealousy of your game, why else would I do it? Though it wasn't clever, I thought the messiah thing was kinda cute. See you soon.
BTW I'm the guy who would have lost his stack on the same hand. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

JD

[kagame]

holdem hero are you still in high school?

[HoldEm_Hero]

Middle school... Get it right!