An expensive lesson learned... [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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LuvDemNutz

03-14-2005, 09:55 PM

I have finally come to realize that there is no point in Blind-stealing in NL. Whenever I try to earn myself an easy 1.5BB's I get myself caught up in a hand where I usually wind up losing a ton.

Also, one of these days I'm going to stop drinking when I play but that's a whole other story...

Case in point...

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 ($221.8)
UTG+2 ($380.4)
MP1 ($433.8)
MP2 ($843.55)
MP3 ($901.55)
CO ($378)
Hero ($671.1)
SB ($453.8)
BB ($1014.8)
UTG ($648)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
7 folds, Hero raises to $10, 1 fold, BB raises to $28, Hero calls $22.

Flop: ($66) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets $55, Hero raises to $110, BB calls $55.

Turn: ($286) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($286) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets $100, Hero raises to $300, BB raises to $600, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $1186

Results in white below: 
BB doesn't show.
Outcome: BB wins $1186.

Yeti

03-14-2005, 10:19 PM

Eew. The only street you got right was the turn.

- Make it $16 preflop and take it from there.
- Minraising the flop is very bad. Call or make a larger raise.
- The river is plain ugly.

Kaz The Original

03-14-2005, 10:21 PM

Why even bother calling his reraise preflop?

AZK

03-15-2005, 12:45 AM

Where's DavidC? Every dollar matters in NL.

As for the hand. I agree with what's been said. If you are going to steal/build a pot, might as well make it look standard. Check/call the flop, check/fold the turn unimproved.

SpeakEasy

03-15-2005, 12:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have finally come to realize that there is no point in Blind-stealing in NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, but you have to be ready to immediately show restraint and bail out if they call, unless the flop hits you extremely hard. This was not one of those times.

ArtVandelay

03-15-2005, 01:02 AM

by an enormous margin the worst play is the river... classic horrible raise... you (virtually) never get paid off if you're winning, and because you raised so small (opponent is getting like 3.5:1) it's almost impossible to push him off a better hand

fsuplayer

03-15-2005, 01:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why even bother calling his reraise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i am calling this preflop for a variety of reasons.

bigfishead

03-15-2005, 01:14 AM

When I join a table on the internet, the first players I look at are the first 4 to my left. They are in blind taking position. If I have info on them I look for players that see LESS than 20% of the flops. If they VP$P in the mid 20's I rarely attempt to steal with the trash connectors & 1 gappers like 98o 76s Q10 etc. Mainly because they are "aware" and will play back when I really dont want it to cost me. BUT, the ones with UNDER 20% I will steal from more liberally. Rarely will they defend. If they do you know where your at. Beware....hit it or muck on a miss dont get involved if they fire without a real shot at making a hand. I still get to steal an appropriate amount using those conditions.

Now if it is a player that sees 30% + flops I will not attempt to steal at all. I will just play my better hands for value.

As for your play of this hand.....The opening raise IMO is weak...no less than 3 x and not more than 5 x BB is about right I'd say. On the flop I say you did OK...either call with intention to fold on a turn miss, or pop-it as you did, up to 3 x the bet, no more, with these stack sizes. BEYOND the turn I will not lose any more $$ in this hand. I will ONLY make money. By hitting and getting paid off. Your roughly 2:1 to get there so the implied odds make it reasonble to act accordingly, with a small amount of opponent folding when you do make a nut hand, but instead paying you off for another 300+ on most occasions when you do make it.

Just my thoughts.

Usagi_yo

03-15-2005, 02:12 AM

Somebody once told me, I won't mention names, but he is very good and aggressive player. "Steal with garbage". Like 42o because you're never tempted to continue playing unless you flop an extremely freak hand.

fsuplayer

03-15-2005, 03:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody once told me, I won't mention names, but he is very good and aggressive player. "Steal with garbage". Like 42o because you're never tempted to continue playing unless you flop an extremely freak hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

or just dont get stuck with your TPugly kicker. and reep all the benefits of stealing w decent hands.

KaneKungFu123

03-15-2005, 07:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have finally come to realize that there is no point in Blind-stealing in NL. Whenever I try to earn myself an easy 1.5BB's I get myself caught up in a hand where I usually wind up losing a ton.

Also, one of these days I'm going to stop drinking when I play but that's a whole other story...

Case in point...

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 ($221.8)
UTG+2 ($380.4)
MP1 ($433.8)
MP2 ($843.55)
MP3 ($901.55)
CO ($378)
Hero ($671.1)
SB ($453.8)
BB ($1014.8)
UTG ($648)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
7 folds, Hero raises to $10, 1 fold, BB raises to $28, Hero calls $22.

Flop: ($66) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets $55, Hero raises to $110, BB calls $55.

Turn: ($286) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($286) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets $100, Hero raises to $300, BB raises to $600, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $1186

Results in white below: 
BB doesn't show.
Outcome: BB wins $1186. 

[/ QUOTE ]

So because you suck at poker means we all do?

BluffTHIS!

03-15-2005, 08:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why even bother calling his reraise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i am calling this preflop for a variety of reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am too in this situation. QTo while a marginal hand can make many hands that trap a better hand and the power of position is enormous in NL. What the poster said about raising small on the flop was correct too - raise to 3-4x his bet. The problem comes if he calls that too. Unless he is a player you would know to slowplay a set or top 2 here, you then have to make a pot sized bet on the turn or you will be marked for a drawing hand or 1 pair only (and will be marked with same if you push most likely). You thus will probably shake off AK and TT in this case and just have to hope he doesn't have a set or an overpair. A lot of this depends on your evaluation of how this opponent plays various hands if you have played with him before or very long in this session, and especially whether he will call to the river holding TPTK on the flop no matter what comes.

partygirluk

03-15-2005, 09:05 AM

For those who call on the turn, are you gonna make a play for the pot on a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif turn? That is a move I have been experimenting with recently, with success.

LuvDemNutz

03-15-2005, 10:29 AM

OK - here was my thinking on the hand. The PF raise was probably small but I vary my PF open-raises usually from 3x - 5x the BB.

I minraised the flop to get a free turn card (and free river card if I missed on the turn). Also a lot of players curl up into a ball after being minraised. I agree that checking the turn makes it look like I'm on a draw but this is exactly why I attempted to bluff the river when the diamond hit.

I read the $100 bet by Villain at the river as a "blocking bet" so I figured I'd try to bluff him off what I thought was an overpair QQ-AA.

One poster said the bluff amount was not sufficient - he led for $100 and I made it $300. I'm not sure I agree, especially since he came back over the top.

So please tell me where my thinking is wrong on this hand.

Also, what do you think Villain had?

Yeti

03-15-2005, 10:33 AM

I can't imagine him having anything other than AdKd.

LuvDemNutz

03-15-2005, 10:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine him having anything other than AdKd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me neither -

so given his range of hands - AA, KK, QQ, JJ, various AK, was the river bluff really that bad?

The check on the turn clearly indicated I was on a draw so when the diamond hit the river I thought it was the perfect opportunity to bluff.

After he led for $100, the pot was $400 so I thought $300 would be sufficient to buy it.

So my mistake was viewing the river lead as a "blocking bet" instead of a "value bet". Am I supposed to put him exactly on AdKd?

LuvDemNutz

03-15-2005, 10:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
For those who call on the turn, are you gonna make a play for the pot on a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif turn? That is a move I have been experimenting with recently, with success.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean call the flop and make a play for the pot on a diamond turn?

betgo

03-15-2005, 11:47 AM

Don't raise from the button. Just fold. In a MTT or SNG, I might raise, but these cash games are too loose to steal. Fold to the preflop raise.

On the flop, just call or make a big raise to pick up the pot on a semibluff.

On the river, just call. The raise would be OK if you had nothing. You may have the best hand here, so just show it down.

DavidC

03-21-2005, 12:17 PM

Bet the turn.

DavidC

03-21-2005, 12:22 PM

specifically, get a little bit crazy when it's heads-up (link) (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=182 5304&Forum=f25&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=1 825304&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=15618&datera nge=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=& bodyprev=#Post1825304)

LuvDemNutz

03-21-2005, 03:36 PM

Since this has been bumped, let me ask this question again:

for those of you that bashed my river raise, can you elaborate as to why you think it was a bad play.

Thanks.

DavidC

03-21-2005, 07:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since this has been bumped, let me ask this question again:

for those of you that bashed my river raise, can you elaborate as to why you think it was a bad play.

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't frequent this forum, but found this post because I did a name search and someone refered to me in the first response.

That being said, bump.

JaBlue

03-21-2005, 07:36 PM

the problem is that you horribly misplayed the hand, not that you tried to steal the blinds.

Dr. Strangelove

03-21-2005, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't raise from the button. Just fold. In a MTT or SNG, I might raise, but these cash games are too loose to steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh.

GFunk911

03-21-2005, 10:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since this has been bumped, let me ask this question again:

for those of you that bashed my river raise, can you elaborate as to why you think it was a bad play.

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

If one were making the argument, it would revolve around the fact that you had a hand with showdown value, and you threw it away.

legend42

03-21-2005, 10:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
for those of you that bashed my river raise, can you elaborate as to why you think it was a bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]

For starters, because you gave him 3.5-1 on a river call. What is he going to fold there?

BigBiceps

03-21-2005, 11:38 PM

Fold on the flop. One overcard and an open ender is not good enough to call such a big bet vs. heads-up if there is also a flush draw on the board (and you have none of the suit).