Too Loose of a Push?

[Skip Brutale]

6-handed 100/200 I have 900 with JK and push UTG2.

[citanul]

UTG+2 is the cutoff right? Then it's probably a clear push even though you didn't give us any silly extra information like what the stack sizes of the other players at the table are, or tendencies of the blinds when playing their blinds.

citanul

[Kaz The Original]

There are no circumstances which make this anything but a push.

[Benholio]

[ QUOTE ]
There are no circumstances which make this anything but a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone has 10 chips but the blinds!

[rybones]

[ QUOTE ]

There are no circumstances which make this anything but a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? What if utg pushes and utg+1 calls? is this still a push? What if utg is the only push and the only hand you have seen him push is A,A? What if sb and bb both have less than 1.5xbb each? I might think a fold is in line there as well. Now if it is folded to you, you have only 4.5xbb, other stacks are all your size or bigger, push with your K,J. Hell push with 7,2o.

Am I an idiot?

Ryan

[Skip Brutale]

Ryan that would be a call and not a push.

[rybones]

semantics!!! you get my point I hope.

[BradleyT]

No, it's not semantics.

You can't call with KJ but you can push with it.

[rybones]

A) you can still push if (in my scenerio) utg and utg+1 have smaller stacks.

B) I still say there is no way I call or push if utg and utg+1 merely call. The call from one or both indicates they will call a push from a short stack but fold to a big stack. One or both likely has A high and thus you are beat.

Alas, I say "semantics" because I fold this unless I am opening.

Just my thoughts,

Ryan

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
There are no circumstances which make this anything but a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

as others have noted, if, for instance, the two guys who have folded each have less than 1 bb, it's probably a fold, i would think. we could run some icm numbers. if you are the 2nd stack, and the big stack is in the bb and calls any bet, it's probably not a good push, but i'm not sure.

my post was mostly to point out that hand questions really should try to incorporate something approaching information about the hand before asking people to make comments as to the proper play.

i agree though, that in all "standard" situations, this is a push.

citanul

[curtains]

Ok but we can probably assume that if there were 2 guys with no chips the poster would have mentioned this. I think this question it's safe to just say allin. However I agree that people shouldn't post hand questions without precise details.

[rybones]

I totaly agree, if there were some odd stacks or previous callers the op would have said so. That said, the more information given the better. My real issues is with the absolute advice of "no situation" where this is not a push. God knows I have been guilty of bad advise, and that is why I think advise should be given with a context as well.

Ryan

[Kaz The Original]

Let me rephrase. No additional information can cause this to be not a push.

Obviously there are situations where you don't push with KJ, I won't insult anyone's intelligence by posting even a very basic one, but you cannot CHANGE the situation we are already presented with.

[citanul]

your post fails to make even the closest resemblence of sense...

at the moment i want you to know two somethings. i am drunk, and you are wrong.

here is the information we were given:

"6-handed 100/200 I have 900 with JK and push UTG2."

so the game is 100/200 nl with 900 chips in the co with KJ.

your claim is

"No additional information can cause this to be not a push."

clearly, the situation where everyone but the bb and you have 1 chip, and you have 900, and the bb has the rest, your push is idiotic.

as is in fact admitted by your other sentence:

"Obviously there are situations where you don't push with KJ, I won't insult anyone's intelligence by posting even a very basic one, but you cannot CHANGE the situation we are already presented with."

in fact, i guess your sentence doesn't admit that in situations where it is 100/200 and you have 900 chips first in from the cutoff, there are times when it is wrong to call. but i won't insult your intelligence by restating the above 1 chip per player hypothesis.

even a slight attempt at making sense would be nice next time.

yes, i agree that it is likely that if there were some ridiculous stack size issues to deal with, the op would have mentioned it. but it's very possible not as well. op is known for non-great informationwise posts, and well, this post that started this thread is an example of that. it's not incredibly likely that KJ isn't a push here, but it's possible. and since what we sometimes try to do around here is dispense useful advice, saying "it depends" every once in a while, as long as you can qualify your "depends on what" is ok.

good night.

citanul