How do you change your opening requirements for limpers?

[Bigwig]

Following the gap concept, we know that we need 'x' type of hand to open raise from the CO, for example. We also know that we need a better hand to reraise an opener from MP2. We know we need an even better hand to reraise an opener from UTG. But what of limpers?

Clearly, the gap concept must apply in some way to limpers, since we know that they will call our raises with regularity. And we must account for other players who open raise with limpers when putting them on a range of hands.

Example 1

You're on the button with a random very good starting hand. UTG 2 limps. MP 2 limps. MP3 raises to 4BB.

Example 2

You're on the button with a random very good starting hand. All fold to MP3 who open raises for 3BB.

Obviously, we must give more credit to the player in example 1 for a strong hand, because he raised after there were limpers, and less credit to the player in example 2. This difference may be the difference between raising, calling, or folding. So, how much credit.

Example 3

You're on the button with 77 early in a SNG. Four limpers to you.

Example 4

You're on the button with 77 early in a SNG. All fold to you.

In the above examples, most would clearly limp example 3, and raise example 4. But what if we change it up a little?

Example 5

You have 77 on the button. All fold except for MP1 who limps.

In example 5, should we really be afraid of one limper? Shouldn't we raise now, with position and a solid hand? Why give a player who has shown zero strength a free flop?

So, many would raise in example 5.

But how do we quantify it?

I've been thinking about this, and would like your comment on some guidelines I've been considering. All of my play is based on guidelines (and so should yours), only to adjust when we have good reads on the players in the hand. All good players do this (IMO) whether they are concious of it or not. I like to be concious of it, because my game is largely theory/range of hands/preflop based. So, here are my guidelines:

If there is only one limper in the pot, tighten up your opening requirements only slightly. Open with what you normally would one position to your right.

Example--You are on the button facing one limper. Use the opening requirements you normally have for the CO position.

If there are multiple limpers, use your opening requirements for the position one to the left of the earliest limper.

Example--Three limpers, one UTG, one MP, and one CO. Use your opening requirements from the MP1 & MP2 seats (for me, these are the same).

Please comment on these ideas and add your own.

Thanks.

[Bigwig]

C'mon. We've got five replies to the whereabouts of Gigabet, while this is slipping off page 1. How come all the threads about general theory get ignored around here? Let's get deep.

[Namebejed7]

I see this as a major weakness in my game, so I will post some of my thoughts with the hope of some input.

One situation I see myself in alot is a big offsuit king in LMP. I've been playing around with this alot lately, because I'm starting to think I'm too tight. Anyway, in the past, if I pick up say KJo in LP3, after just one limper I would fold due to the fact I don't know where I'm at on a king high or jack high flop, and I don't think a straight or two pair is worth calling.

Next in my progression, I started limping behind to catch that monster or a draw, but felt I was folding too much on the flop to be worth it, although the odds are about 5-1 of flopping two pair (from memory) so maybe this isn't too bad.

Recently I've been making my standard raise (3x BB plus 1 BB for each limper), and making a continuation bet on the flop. I've been folding to a lot of checkraises, so far this is my least favorite option.

With a semi strong ace, (AJo, A8s, etc) I typically use option 3. With a medium pair, I still limp, because I don't want to wreck my odds, but if first in, I will make a standard raise.

[Slim Pickens]

Can we specify the buy-in level and time of day? I play 10's, and during the super-fishy lunch hour, after work, and after bar hours, I'm hardly adjusting at all for limpers because there are so darn many of the all the time, and they are almost always limping crap anyway. The "credibility" of the limper is very important to me. That having been said...


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If there is only one limper in the pot, tighten up your opening requirements only slightly. Open with what you normally would one position to your right.

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I think this is close to the way I play. Basically a small adjustment, but not much.


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If there are multiple limpers, use your opening requirements for the position one to the left of the earliest limper.

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Limpers after the second don't really count IMO. Fishy players see a lot of limpers and want to come along for the ride (with some degree of correctness) with their suited queens and offsuit low one-gappers, so I'd agree with your statement.


[ QUOTE ]
Example 5

You have 77 on the button. All fold except for MP1 who limps.

In example 5, should we really be afraid of one limper? Shouldn't we raise now, with position and a solid hand? Why give a player who has shown zero strength a free flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to know how people would adjust at the different buy in levels if the limper is UTG, or CO, rather than MP1. For me, I'm much more likely to play the 7's for set value rather than raise if the limper is a decent player from any position. For a weak player, I would treat the limper exactly as I would if the limper were not there and raise, since I have position if he calls and should be able to tell if he's hit the flop.

Slim

[Slim Pickens]

I think I'm folding all of the hands you mentioned, except for the medium pairs, which I would limp regardless of previous limpers.

[Namebejed7]

Can you expand your reason's for folding? I'm certainly not arguing, because that is what I've always done, but I recently moved up in leves to 33's and after 200 tourneys I'm bringing in a whopping 1.48% ROI.

Maybe this is a part of my game I shouldn't mess with too much.

[Slim Pickens]

I'm assuming were at a fairly full table (8-handed or more) with blinds small relative to stack sizes.

Big offsuit kings and semi-strong aces: these hands suck. Period. The number of limpers to you shouldn't even make a difference here. You might occasionally catch me limp AJo off the button here, but I'm still only playing it as a speculative hand for aces up or better. I'd throw it into the category of those rare situations in which I'll limp speculative hands, in position, with a lot of limpers for good implied odds, and with only passive players behind me.

Slim

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
Example 1

You're on the button with a random very good starting hand. UTG 2 limps. MP 2 limps. MP3 raises to 4BB.

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My standards got bumped up a lot. MP3 could have a top hand, plus early limper could have been slow playing and waiting to raise.

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Example 2

You're on the button with a random very good starting hand. All fold to MP3 who open raises for 3BB.


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Standards bumped up, but much less. This could be an opportunity to steal depending on player, stacks, and blinds.

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Example 3

You're on the button with 77 early in a SNG. Four limpers to you.

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Early with 77 limpers don't bother me. I'm playing for a set so more players isn't so bad and a lot of limpers will generally keep the blinds from trying to raise.

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Example 4

You're on the button with 77 early in a SNG. All fold to you.

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I don't like this situation much because I have to stop playing low pair for a set early. I feel like I definately can't limp and probably shouldn't fold. I usually bet about 3 x BB because sometimes I'll win it there and if I'm called I can usually take it if the flop is raggy.

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In the above examples, most would clearly limp example 3, and raise example 4.

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Oh, those were rhetorical. So I shouldn't be too proud I was right.

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Example 5

You have 77 on the button. All fold except for MP1 who limps.

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You didn't say it was early this time. This is tougher. If it is first round I limp. If it is third round, I might raise or fold depending on stacks.

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So, many would raise in example 5.
But how do we quantify it?

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If I did raise and it was the 3rd level it would be to between 150-200. If I didn't think 200 had a chance of taking it preflop, I'd probably fold.


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If there is only one limper in the pot, tighten up your opening requirements only slightly. Open with what you normally would one position to your right.

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Sounds good.

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If there are multiple limpers, use your opening requirements for the position one to the left of the earliest limper.

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Early with a lot of limpers I will limp Axs which I wouldn't do from early position. Also, at some tables a lot of limpers makes you almost certain none of them has a big PP so you can raise with JJ when you might have played it for set value in early position. If you are at around 10xBB, a lot of limpers can make pushing more attractive as a steal. On the other hand, a lot of limpers makes AQ or AJ suck, when they might not suck as bad in early position.

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Example--Three limpers, one UTG, one MP, and one CO. Use your opening requirements from the MP1 & MP2 seats (for me, these are the same).

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Radiskull getting sleepy, very sleepy. Got coffee? Is it boiling hot?

Sounds like multiple limpers. I'll just go with what I said there without being sure.

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Please comment on these ideas and add your own.

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I had an idea for making a floating ping pong table so you can play in a pool.

Ohhhhhhhh, you meant my ideas about playing after limpers.

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Thanks.

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You're welcome.

[microbet]

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super-fishy lunch hour

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There's a super-fishy lunch hour? Is there one fishy hour at noon pacific time and another at noon eastern time, with two semi-fishy hours in between?

Hmm, then if there is a time when it is night time in LA, after bar hours in NY and lunch time in London, that would be the fishiest hour of all!!!!