AQs in CO position and flop misses

[@bsolute_luck]

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

at this point i don't know why i raised the flop. is it incorrect even with 2 checks to me with backdoor straight/flush draw?

then the turn, MP3 comes alive, which i put him on a pair of Kings actually. should i have folded since the straight/flush is gone and i'm left hoping an A hits?

[Niediam]

Raise preflop. Bet the flop. Fold the turn.

[Fianchetto]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop. Bet the flop. Fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[gvibes]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop. Bet the flop. Fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thirded...

[zeropotential]

[ QUOTE ]
at this point i don't know why i raised the flop. is it incorrect even with 2 checks to me with backdoor straight/flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

you didn't raise the flop?? you bet it, which was correct and you did so because there was a 1 in 7 chance they would all fold and because you might still have the best hand

on the turn your fine to lay this down

[@bsolute_luck]

k, good at least i'm good up to that point. sadly i played out the hand.

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (8.20 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 10.20 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP3 has 4s Ks (one pair, kings).
Hero has Ad Qd (one pair, queens).
Outcome: MP3 wins 10.20 BB.

MHING</font>

[DoctorDrew]

I think this is an important backdoor lesson on value betting. MP3 likes his TP on the turn when he picks up the gutshot. A queen comes (Pretty innocuous--if you had him outkicked on the turn this certainly didn't help. <font color="red"> [Is a raise here +EV when you pickup a gutshot now if you were out-kicked?]</font>). I think MP3 should value bet this river. Agreed?

[atnels]

Yes, I was wondering that even before I read your post. (I agree)

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is an important backdoor lesson on value betting. MP3 likes his TP on the turn when he picks up the gutshot. A queen comes (Pretty innocuous--if you had him outkicked on the turn this certainly didn't help. <font color="red"> [Is a raise here +EV when you pickup a gutshot now if you were out-kicked?]</font>). I think MP3 should value bet this river. Agreed?

[/ QUOTE ]

If MP3 thought he was outkicked (which it seems so) and only bet the turn on the basis of his gutshot, it wasn't an +EV move on his part.

[@bsolute_luck]

it was still a mistake to take my hand that far though wasn't it?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
it was still a mistake to take my hand that far though wasn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm folding that turn too.

[jrz1972]

Yes. Like everybody else said, this is a routine fold on the turn.

[Waynomo]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Like everybody else said, this is a routine fold on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. Beginner here trying to learn. . .

Why is folding on the turn the proper move?

[@bsolute_luck]

HEY welcome to the boards! we can both learn, so i'll give this a shot to see if i learned correctly, but...

the bet on the turn i think is probably top pair. that puts me to 3 outs (the Aces). which i don't think i have odds to call, so it's a fold.

even if the bettor doesn't have top pair, but even low pair. i have 6 outs, which i still don't have odds to call and in this small pot, i'm folding.

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Like everybody else said, this is a routine fold on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. Beginner here trying to learn. . .

Why is folding on the turn the proper move?

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the major skills needed to play poker correctly is hand reading. How hand reading is done is by listening to what a villians bettin and or calling is telling us.

When we raise pf and on the flop, we are saying we have a big hand. We are basically trying to sell the fact that we have at least a pair, with the K on the board most players will assume we have a pair because many players who doubt we have a pocket pair pf will assume we have AK.

When villian bets into us on the turn (we call this "waking up") he has something a large % of the time. The reason being is that he must know the chances of us raising (or at least calling) are very large. Whenever a villian "wakes up" like this it is very scary. Especially when the card that hits the board is not very scary. When the card is not scary it's very rarely a bluff. It usually means villian has top pair or better (usually better.) Since we have nothing but one overcard, if we call turn the best we can hope for on the river is one pair. We are often drawing dead. The pot is not that large. This is a standard fold.

[Finch]

This hand interests me because I think am routinely misplaying the hands where I raise PF and miss.

If the villain doesn't bet into you on the turn, do you keep betting? That's the move I've been making lately against one or two opponents, but I'm getting called down and losing to middle/bottom pair quite often.

I just have a hard time knowing when to stop. The PF raise make me feel obligated to keep betting. A check on the turn will almost certainly induce a bet on the river, and that always feels like a horrible place to be. I don't want to fold to a bluffing missed draw, but I don't want to pay off bottom pair.

Right now, this is the part of my game that I'm struggling with the most...any suggestions?

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop. Bet the flop. Fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thirded...

[/ QUOTE ]

fourthed

[Waynomo]

Thanks droolie. Well written. Very Clear. I think I need to print this out and tape it to my monitor for reminders. I call to the end too much in this situation.

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand interests me because I think am routinely misplaying the hands where I raise PF and miss.

If the villain doesn't bet into you on the turn, do you keep betting? That's the move I've been making lately against one or two opponents, but I'm getting called down and losing to middle/bottom pair quite often.

I just have a hard time knowing when to stop. The PF raise make me feel obligated to keep betting. A check on the turn will almost certainly induce a bet on the river, and that always feels like a horrible place to be. I don't want to fold to a bluffing missed draw, but I don't want to pay off bottom pair.

Right now, this is the part of my game that I'm struggling with the most...any suggestions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing overcards can very tough. There are many things to consider here are a few factors...

Don't feel like you have to autobet the flop, especially if there are more than 2 other players in the pot with you. You will only get the players who missed to fold and those that hit will usually call you down. Remember you only need one guy to call you down with bottom pair in order to lose. You get no credit for making the rest of themf old.

On the turn how many players are calling? I think against 1 a bet is usually correct. This is because it is very likely you have the best hand. Against two it becomes much more grey. Three or more and you're probably better of checking because it is less likely you have the best hand.

You have to analyze the flop. What are they calling the flop with? If there are obvious draws you can keep betting and they'll likely fold the river if the draw doesn't come in. When against two I analyze the board again on the turn. How many draws could the turn card help? Many players peel one off with backdoor draws and will fold the turn if they don't improve to a real draw.

Reads on the other players help too. A weak tight player will often fold bottom pair. Typical party passives won't. There are many tables I am able to literally run over with aggressive betting (many 1/2 tables come to mind). Many .50/1 tables require you to showdown the best hand in order to win. Figure out what kind of tableyou are at and adopt a style that will be most effective.

The last benefit to checking is that you can bluff when an overcard hits but doesn't improve your hand. If you have AQ on a T high board and a K hits the river. A bet or raise will often steal the pot.

[DoctorDrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is an important backdoor lesson on value betting. MP3 likes his TP on the turn when he picks up the gutshot. A queen comes (Pretty innocuous--if you had him outkicked on the turn this certainly didn't help. <font color="red"> [Is a raise here +EV when you pickup a gutshot now if you were out-kicked?]</font>). I think MP3 should value bet this river. Agreed?

[/ QUOTE ]

If MP3 thought he was outkicked (which it seems so) and only bet the turn on the basis of his gutshot, it wasn't an +EV move on his part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I still struggle with EV concepts.