5-10 PL Anyone like this?

[Philuva]

Opponent is fairly aggro. So his preflop raise and flop bet mean very little.

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG+1 ($1036.75)
MP1 ($1067)
MP2 ($1115)
<font color="#C00000">CO ($3335)</font>
Button ($1803)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($1643.25)</font>
BB ($1042)
UTG ($655)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $5.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $35</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) calls $30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($80) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $77</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $308</font>, CO calls $231.

Turn: ($696) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $693</font>, CO calls $693.

River: ($2082) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $607.25</font> (all-in), CO calls $607.25.

Final Pot: $2689.25

Comments on all streets appreciated.

[AZK]

I don't like the turn. I probably bet a little less on the flop too. Are you worried when an aggro player starts calling you down? Something seems wrong, these guys are normally pumpers... I don't feel good when he calls my river bet.

[The.Filth]

I'm very curious to what your opponent had. Can you post the showdown?

[fnord_too]

Let me add my pedestrian comments since I think it helps my game to verbalize these things:

Pre-flop: Looks fine

Flop: Looks fine.

Turn: Here's where I have questions. Obviously you have to call for all your chips if raised, so the question is what is the best line? Checking seems wrong to me, so it really comes down to making a pot sized bet or pushing. The pot sized bet lets you get away on the river if you don't improve, but you make it a lot easier for villain to call. Villain should probably push here, since what could he be calling with that he will lay down on the river getting &gt; 4:1 on his call? If he is ahead, he might as well not give you the chance to get away from a busted draw, and if he's behind, he's going to double you up anyway. So if it is right for villain to set you in if he is going to call, and you have to call for all your chips, isn't it better to push the turn? Now checking is looking like it might be a viable route, but that is just inviting a pot size bet that you would probably be wrong to call and wrong to push. The more I think about it, the more I think the only two options are checking and folding to a bet &gt; 1/2 pot or pushing the turn. I like pushing the turn more.

River: Looks good.

[Philuva]

Hey fnord, you might have missed it, but this is pot limit. Given that, what would do you think about the turn?

[Philuva]

I will post the results and my thoughts later. I would like to get a few more responses before that though.

[KaneKungFu123]

it looks like youre drawing dead.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey fnord, you might have missed it, but this is pot limit. Given that, what would do you think about the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I did miss it. That would explain why all the bets are exactly pot sized, which I thought odd...

I am not real sure but here are my new turn thoughts:

Pot is ~693 and you have ~1300 left. I think betting enough so that you can push a raise (or get away from the hand) and push the river regardless is good. I think a bet of about $350, maybe $300 is the lowest you can go (though not the best amount) given the flop action. Let me think about this for a minute. Let's say you can get away with a $200 bet. Then if he calls, you could push on the river, but you would probably not want to push the river in any case (it looks suspicious if you missed, but seems too much for a lesser hand to call if you hit since hitting obviously entails a scare card coming).

So let's say you bet $350, then you have $950 left, and the pot is ~1400, giving you ~2.5:1 on your money if vilain decides to raise. You probably have to lay that down, but that may not be horrible. Then on the river, your push would be 950 into a 1400 pot, still, probably too big.

Let's look at $450, then the pot is 1600 and you have 850 left, and I think are getting the right price to call. Also, that means your push on the end if you hit is giving someone very tempting odds to call.

I think under betting the pot is slightly better than potting it. I like $450 - $500 since I don't like the idea of getting pushed out by an aggressive opponent on the turn, but I would like to save some money if he does not set me in and I miss (I don't see a lot of merit in a river bluff, but I could be wrong here).

Again, I don't have a lot of big bet experience outside of tournaments, so read my line with an extremely critical eye.

[JFB37]

I agree, it is pretty tough to put Villian on a hand here. Would he really call the raise on the flop with, say, AJ of hearts? Your raise, out of position, makes it look like you have a set. I think maybe he flopped middle set and didn't reraise because he didn't know whether you had the top or the bottom

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, it is pretty tough to put Villian on a hand here. Would he really call the raise on the flop with, say, AJ of hearts? Your raise, out of position, makes it look like you have a set. I think maybe he flopped middle set and didn't reraise because he didn't know whether you had the top or the bottom

[/ QUOTE ]

the problem with the turn bet is that if its called, he is commited if a flush card hits on the river when he could aready be drawing dead.

i like the flop play, but i am checking the turn, and probally folding.

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem with the turn bet is that if its called, he is commited if a flush card hits on the river when he could aready be drawing dead.

i like the flop play, but i am checking the turn, and probally folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't my opponent be inclined to call my flop CR and fold a flush draw to a pot size turn bet because of my large bet and the board pairing? Maybe even fold a small overpair? Agreed, I was not thrilled when he called my turn bet, but that is not a reason not to make a turn bet.

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, it is pretty tough to put Villian on a hand here. Would he really call the raise on the flop with, say, AJ of hearts? Your raise, out of position, makes it look like you have a set. I think maybe he flopped middle set and didn't reraise because he didn't know whether you had the top or the bottom

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on dude. Is every PL or NL hand played where 1 or both players have a set? I hate this thinking and see it all of the time on here.

This is an aggro player who raised in LP, he could have a wide variety of hands that he would play in this manner up until the turn that do not include a set.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the problem with the turn bet is that if its called, he is commited if a flush card hits on the river when he could aready be drawing dead.

i like the flop play, but i am checking the turn, and probally folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't my opponent be inclined to call my flop CR and fold a flush draw to a pot size turn bet because of my large bet and the board pairing? Maybe even fold a small overpair? Agreed, I was not thrilled when he called my turn bet, but that is not a reason not to make a turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you normally raise a set here on the flop? Alot of players semi-bluffs are completely agro and dont resemble their normal betting patterns. If you had the nuts on the turn, why would you force a flush draw to fold?

I have a very hard time folding an over pair in this situation.

Given your action on the flop, I like to check the turn here, and maybe check-raise it depending how much he bets.

If he checks behind, and a heart comes on the river, I'd pot it and fold to a raise.

[JFB37]

[ QUOTE ]
Come on dude. Is every PL or NL hand played where 1 or both players have a set? I hate this thinking and see it all of the time on here.

This is an aggro player who raised in LP, he could have a wide variety of hands that he would play in this manner up until the turn that do not include a set.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, fine. Point taken. But I was looking at the entire hand, not just up to the flop. Put yourself in his shoes, facing your line. Is there a "wide variety of hands" that does not include sets that you would (a) call a pot sized c/r on the flop with; (b) call a flop sized bet on the turn with and (c) call an all in with? Would you go all the way with AK or KK? Would you have gone all the way with AJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif?

Things I think he could conceivably have after looking at the hand are 34 (but that is a pretty aggro pf raise), 56 (maybe), A5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and a set. What else would you put on the list?

[morello]

If you miss on the river, are you check folding, or are you going to try and fire another barrel?

[ggbman]

I like it when it works /images/graemlins/smile.gif. In all seriousness, this line is only good if you are pretty sure you opponent will fold QQ or worse when you jam the turn.

[turnipmonster]

phil you must not have gotten the memo on that. in the party poker terms and conditions it clearly states you need a set to raise the flop out of position in pot limit.

--turnipmonster

[Matt Flynn]

yes. six of us have exemptions but otherwise it's in the EULA.

[SeattleJake]

Is everyone really ok calling a pre-flop raise with suited-connectors out of position in a heads-up pot? If so, I need to unlearn a lot of things I've learned on here. Is it just because raiser may be on a steal?

[TheWorstPlayer]

Stack sizes.

[SeattleJake]

I-C. Thanks!

[cero_z]

Hi Phil,

I make this kind of play on there all the time, it seems. And it works better there than in live play, IMO. But in this one spot, the turn card is so bad for you that I'd probably check it. Because of the pot-sized raise pre-flop, your pot-sized check-raise was pretty large for this game. I tend to put the guy on an overpair when he flat-calls it, with a big flush draw being less likely in my mind (not really sure how it works out Bayes-theorem-wise, given your 2 hearts and his calling requirements on the flop). But if he had a big pair, calling your raise is how most decent players on there would play it--call to see a safe turn card, and take away your ability to get all-in on the flop with a big draw and 2 cards coming.

With that in mind, the deuce is a pretty nice card for him. Whereas before he had to consider 56s from you (which I'd play exactly as you did on the first two streets), now he's not sweating it with an overpair, and has more outs with AQh, say. Also, I haven't played PL with you, but most folks on there who had just filled up a set would make a smaller turn bet--not that a huge bet is wrong. So, your bluff looks like a less powerful hand than it did on the flop, which ain't good if he's got any courage. For example, I could definitely see myself putting you all in on the turn with AKh/AQh/AA--JJ.

I haven't addressed him possibly having a set/fh yet, because I think it's unlikely. I don't think most players who are smart enough to bet full pot with a set there are going to just call your pot-raise, given the draws, the fact that you might be mentally committed, and the possible straight (he would want to get his money in with 2 cards to come in case he was the one drawing). If he's good, he knows that many players in his spot would keep raising and raising the flop with just AA; he might as well do it with a set.

Pre-flop, your call is definitely right, given the stack sizes and crazy action you get at PP.

Also, when I said to check the turn, that doesn't mean give up. If he bets full pot, you prolly should. But he may check, in which case I'd tend to bet a brick on the river, especially if it made more straights possible, and be cautious with a heart, since he took a free card. If he bet the turn small/reasonable, I'd consider calling or going over the top. THAT would look like a boat or a straight.

Finally, as it played out, of course move in on the river. He must call, and you're ahead the majority of the time here for sure.

Nice to see you're playing these tables, too; Charlottesville in the HIZ-OUSE! Represent.

[Philuva]

I guess the turn was the critical part. Whether I continue with my semibluff or not. The thing is , as long as I am not against a set I still have 9 outs against a higher flush draw (straight or pair), and 11 outs against a pocket pair (straight and flush draw). So I thought this was enough to continue the semi-bluff.

I really thought the board pairing was good for me, and that I could get another flush draw to laydown and maybe a medium pocket pair, but this was probably wishful thinking. I also have to agree with Cero too, that if I had top 2, the bottom card pairing actually helps pocket pairs.

Obviously on the river, betting is the right choice, as I am going to have to call anyway, and I would hate a pocket pair to check behind.

Results: opponent had AhQh and my HWNG. I realized later in the session this opponent did not like to lay down any hand, so this was not the guy to be trying semi-bluff bets, but simply value betting to death.

Thanks for all the replies.