Moving to SSHE loose charts?

[Sasnak]

After 30,000 hands my VP is only 12.41%, PFR is 6.20 and AF is 2.3. I believe I need to get my VP higher and position myself for more straights and flush opportunities by coming into the hand with more suited connectors, etc. With just finishing a 100BB downswing I'm -.60BB/100.

Prior to reading SSHE I read WLLHE and was TP-P and now PT rates me as TA-N. Using SSHE's tight chart religiously but I think I'm missing too many +EV situations while playing a straight ABC type of game.

Toss in a couple of premium holdings getting cracked and I'm down 20BB's in a session and if they hold up I find myself ahead 20BB's. So overall I'm neither really gaining or losing.

To shake up my game I was considering playing a few sessions using the loose charts and holding onto my chair. It would certainly put me out of my comfort range of starting hands and position, but maybe that's what I need to jumpstart my game.

Sound like a good idea?

[axioma]

12.4% is just way, way too low.

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
12.4% is just way, way too low.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a doubt it is, which is why I initially posted my loose chart thoughts.

I'm looking for spots to get involved with but will fold most of my holdings to a PFR unless I'm holding AJs or better, so as not to be dominated. My strategy is to either 3 bet or cap a raise rather than calling or folding. So many of the KQ/9s and better I end up dropping to a preflop raiser. But I will come in for a raise with it if I'm first in.

I'm certainly not spewing chips and making bad preflop decisions in my mind but... A couple of downswings, a cold run of flops, and getting my AA/KK/QQ cracked a couple of times hurts the BB/100.

I know my VP needs to improve drastically and I believe my "leak" to be not playing enough hands.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
After 30,000 hands my VP is only 12.41%, PFR is 6.20 and AF is 2.3. I believe I need to get my VP higher and position myself for more straights and flush opportunities by coming into the hand with more suited connectors, etc. With just finishing a 100BB downswing I'm -.60BB/100.

Prior to reading SSHE I read WLLHE and was TP-P and now PT rates me as TA-N. Using SSHE's tight chart religiously but I think I'm missing too many +EV situations while playing a straight ABC type of game.

Toss in a couple of premium holdings getting cracked and I'm down 20BB's in a session and if they hold up I find myself ahead 20BB's. So overall I'm neither really gaining or losing.

To shake up my game I was considering playing a few sessions using the loose charts and holding onto my chair. It would certainly put me out of my comfort range of starting hands and position, but maybe that's what I need to jumpstart my game.

Sound like a good idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

When on line I would advise using the tight chart in SSHE as a default and switching to the loose chart after evaluating the table. When playing live start with the loose chart and switch to the tight one if conditions warrant.

That said, using the tight table chart in SSHE should get you a VPIP of 17% or so.

[CMonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Using SSHE's tight chart religiously but I think I'm missing too many +EV situations while playing a straight ABC type of game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sets off some alarms for me. Maybe it's because my first hobby game is chess and it smacks of "What chess opening should I use?" Poker is much the same way; preflop mistakes are small mistakes. Choose something reasonable and just use that rather than relying on any predetermined chart.

SSHE has a decent section on types of starting hands. Rather than use a chart, I'd say you're better off using that and just evaluating each starting hand you get on its own merit in the situation you wind up in. There are only a few different classifications of starting hands, so it shouldn't take too much studying to quickly pick up which hands want few/many opponent, passive/aggressive opponents, etc... and whether your hand in the classification is strong, marginal, or weak. An easy way to add to your VP$IP is to play more marginal hands of the appropriate type (for the situation) from late position.

If you move over to a much looser style cold-turkey, you may find yourself in all kinds of unpleasant marginal situations that are difficult to deal with. Introducing a few marginal situations to your gameplay at a time is much easier to handle.

[CanKid]

Sasnak,

Here's a link to a Ray Zee article you may find interesting.

http://www.twoplustwo.com/zee2.html

[ThePenguin]

A question designed to make you think. How do position and the number of players in the pot affect your PF standards?

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
A question designed to make you think. How do position and the number of players in the pot affect your PF standards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Position is most important for all the normal reasoning. For example QJo. An easy fold in EP and limp in LP with a possible steal raise first in depending upon the blind reads.

While I would normally want 2-3 limpers to come in with an Axs or K-J9s, I would fold if first in. Now I'm limping in to see the pot if in MP or later and raising first to act in LP for a possible blind steal.

PF I'm tight and will push flush/straight draws and TP or better. I'll also take a card for one bet on the flop if I have a backdoor straight AND flush draw combined - but will fold if I miss the flop even with the backdoor straight OR flush draw.

The last few thousand hands have been luke warm at best preflop, and nowhere near me on the flop. This afternoon I played the loose charts and was up 15BB's then gave a good portion back when I was outflushed once, and missed my nut flush on the river with 3 opponents. Overall I was up 5BB's in 90 minutes of play.

My previous 7 table sessions before today I've have all been losing tables where I've missed huge draws, or have gotten cracked. My regular buy-in is 25BB's and I've made "good" preflop decisions but end up being down 10-12 BB's and then I move on to another table. Lately this is how it happens... Raise AK or A/KQJs and miss the flop completely but will lead out to see what happens. Then pump a nut flush draw only to miss. Make a small hand or two to keep me around and then miss another draw or two. Before you know it I'm down 12-15BB's on that table.

My table selection involves joining the wait list for the first available table and then checking the notes when I get there. I want a LP-P on my right or I leave. If I have trouble finding one I'll join the first table where I have no notes on anyone, play a few orbits and see what GT+ has to tell me. If a TAG is to my right I'll leave for better tables.

I'm not "spewing chips" nor am I chasing. But from reading the posts I know my VP is low and my WTSD is low too, 24%. My W$@SD is around 52%. So between adding a few more hands and seeing a showdown a few more times I'm looking to break over the hump.

[A_C_Slater]

Are you playing KQo, AJo, KTs, QTs, JTs, A9s in EP first in?

[Dopey]

Um, No I don't think loosening up is a good idea.

You seem to have a decent number of hands for your stats to have some value. You don't mention which limits you are playing is fairly important. Without know exactly how you play these are just the first impressions I get from your post.

First you are correct that you VPIP is far too low and given my experience the SSHE tight guidelines should give you a VPIP of 16-18%

I don't think loosening up is the correct approach because given the number of hands youve played (unless you are on a streak of very cold cards which is possible but unlikely) you should be showing a profit if your post-flop play is sound.

Loosening your pre-flop play will only hurt your game if you are leaking money post-flop. I would spend some time focusing on you post flop play, because if you are indeed playing a tight aggressive style pre-flop, then post-flop is were you are likely losing the most. Most players shouldn't lose money using SSHE tight preflop charts (They may make more with the loose guidelines in some games but shouldn't be a loser by playing tight).

You mention the change in you play style from TPP to TAN. This is an area I myself and many people I know had trouble with when we finished reading SSHE. I recommend reviewing your play and making sure your applying appropriate aggression at appropriate times because many players I know began playing far too agressive at the wrong time and that became the biggest leak in their game. TAA is the best playing style but only if applied correctly.

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you playing KQo, AJo, KTs, QTs, JTs, A9s in EP first in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Limping in with first 5 in EP and A9s in MP. Fold all to a preflop raise unless I'm in the blinds, as a rule anyway.

Everything post I read tells me they get 15-17% VP and higher playing straight from the tight charts. Surely with 30k hands of playing the tight charts it would have me higher than, as of right now, 12.46%?

I honestly don't feel as if my play is bad either. A few of the bigger hands go the other way and I'm doing good. It just feels as if I'm missing the boat on some of the smaller hands which would offset a big hand losing every once in awhile. What's missing are the small "hits" which gets the runners across home plate. A long ball goes over the wall every now and then but lately it seems as if they are being snagged at the warning track.

[flair1239]

I'll go you one better. Throw away your chart move down a level if you need to and play less tables. Instead of consulting your chart evaluate your hand based on table conditions and the quality of your opponents.

Then start posting some of your PF hands, and why you did what you did.

SSH probably has the best discussion of hand values pre-flop that I have read. It explains the why and the when of how to play the various hands.

It is hard to get away from the chart at first, but once you do you will start becoming a better player and enjoy the game much more.

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll go you one better. Throw away your chart move down a level if you need to and play less tables. Instead of consulting your chart evaluate your hand based on table conditions and the quality of your opponents.

Then start posting some of your PF hands, and why you did what you did.

SSH probably has the best discussion of hand values pre-flop that I have read. It explains the why and the when of how to play the various hands.

It is hard to get away from the chart at first, but once you do you will start becoming a better player and enjoy the game much more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I'm doing just that except for the moving down a limit. Single tabling and really attempting to watch the other players and base my play upon what's going on around the table.

I still plan on opening up somewhat and when "I" say "opening up" for me, it just might be too damn tight for some of you.

With an additional 100BB's committed to 1/2 where I'm at, I'm going to strive to whip it before moving back and regrouping. Currently I have 1000+BB's so there is no anxiety of losing it all going on either. I play a relaxed game.

[Isura]

At first, I would only add more hands in situations where you will be raising them (eg. AJo in EP, 77 in MP). Get that pf aggression up, that is more important than a high VP.

[memphis57]

I, too, have a hard time reconciling 12.46% VPIP with "religiously following SSHE tight chart." I did some extensive modelling of that chart under various conditions, and you would have to be facing a very high PFR% to give that number. Are you sure you're following the chart by position, or could you be using one position's guidelines to apply to a later position?

That statistical matter aside, I'm with the posters above who say that if win rate is the problem, don't look to loosening pre-flop as the answer. A 12.46% VPIP, played properly post-flop, should be solidly profitable. A few busted KKs or missed flush draws will not change that over the long run. If you're averaging 2.0-2.5 BB/100 at 12.46% VPIP, you could maybe add 0.5 BB/100 by loosening to 16-17 (or lose that amount), but you're already playing all the big winners in the 12.46 portion. It's only marginal hands that remain, and their profitability depends on post-flop play. Thus, if you're not making the 2.0-2.5 base, that indicates post-flop problems and so you're more likely to lose than gain by adding a bunch of marginal hands.

So, where is the leak post-flop? The standard answer there is to post some hands in the appropriate forum and see if others can spot something you're overlooking.

Let me throw out one thing, just as a wild guess, which may be completely wrong in your case. Could it be that you are too predictable? Can an opponent guess from your betting pattern how good a hand he will need to win? Like I say, this may not apply, but something in your posts just made me think that might be a possibility.

[MicroBob]

Agreed.


It's amazing the number of people who SWEAR they are playing exactly 'by the book' yet obviously have stats that indicate they are folding in situations where 'the book' would have them playing.


i suspect there isn't a lot of raising going on by the OP....and certainly not from late-position when there is a situation to take advantage of.

Basically, 12% is just WAY too low.

I recommend posting some PF limps and folds in the ML or SS forums and seeing what kind of feedback you get.
There is just NO WAY that your opponents are raising you out of so many hands that you can only be playing 12% of them.


I don't even think that 65s from the button with a couple players is where you want to be adding hands.
There are ioslation-raises after 1 limper with a strong hand that should be automatic from MP and LP. I am guessing it's aggressive hands like this that many of the VP-12 tpe players are missing.



Generally agree to learn to get AWAY from the charts if you can and think in terms of what is a smart poker play to make in this situation.

[Sasnak]

Agreed and well worded memphis. Last night I played a 2 hour session on single tables until they turned bad. I obtained good seating and when the table tightened up, or I felt as if I was getting outplayed, I left for better tables.

I did post a few hands from last nights sessions in ML while I was playing. Value betting the river is a big problem. I'm either losing bets by checking or losing an extra bet when betting out. That certainly adds up.

An other example of play change is not raising to clean up outs behind me. I did this often in in .50/1, but not near as often in 1/2 as I probably should.

By paying closer attention I did notice two players who would bet and raise with middle pair fairly often. I caught them twice when I held TPWK when normally I'd release the hand to aggression.

My play could very well be predictable and it'd be interesting to read other players notes on myself. Obviously I play a very tight game and bet/raise when I believe I have the best of it, but release if I feel someone else believes in their hand more.

Last nights sessions had me at 15.28/5.21/2.77 and I ended up 35BB's after the two hours. WTSD while still low, was a few points higher at 28.82% and W$@SD was 58.82% virtually the same. Hey, it's a starting point to build upon.

Obviously I have much work to do, thanks for the reply memphis.

[Peter Olley]

Seems to me and I am by no means an expert but why don't you try just sitting down at a table without trying to make sure it's PERFECT !! Charts for this, Charts for that? Charts are a learning tool not the Holy Grail. Make up your own charts. Use Poker Tracker and see which hands work best for you and in what situations. Use your head and your heart(intuition) and you will be happier and play smarter. Quit chasing the rabbit and you'll be the rabbit.

Just My Humble Opinion...I may be wrong....???...NAH...LOL

[Beavis68]

I thought I played by the tight charts pretty religiously, and I have a hard time getting below 21% VPIP, and my PFR is about 9-10%

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
After 30,000 hands my VP is only 12.41%, PFR is 6.20 and AF is 2.3. I believe I need to get my VP higher and position myself for more straights and flush opportunities by coming into the hand with more suited connectors, etc. With just finishing a 100BB downswing I'm -.60BB/100.

Prior to reading SSHE I read WLLHE and was TP-P and now PT rates me as TA-N. Using SSHE's tight chart religiously but I think I'm missing too many +EV situations while playing a straight ABC type of game.

Toss in a couple of premium holdings getting cracked and I'm down 20BB's in a session and if they hold up I find myself ahead 20BB's. So overall I'm neither really gaining or losing.

To shake up my game I was considering playing a few sessions using the loose charts and holding onto my chair. It would certainly put me out of my comfort range of starting hands and position, but maybe that's what I need to jumpstart my game.

Sound like a good idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

Go back to the last session you played. Take the first 100 hands (or last 100 hands). Post only the preflop action for all 100 hands (break them up into groups of 20 for each post). This has been done several times before so it shouldn't be a big deal. If you catch a lot of flak, just ask for a few volunteers to go over sets of 100 hands once a week or so.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After 30,000 hands my VP is only 12.41%, PFR is 6.20 and AF is 2.3. I believe I need to get my VP higher and position myself for more straights and flush opportunities by coming into the hand with more suited connectors, etc. With just finishing a 100BB downswing I'm -.60BB/100.

Prior to reading SSHE I read WLLHE and was TP-P and now PT rates me as TA-N. Using SSHE's tight chart religiously but I think I'm missing too many +EV situations while playing a straight ABC type of game.

Toss in a couple of premium holdings getting cracked and I'm down 20BB's in a session and if they hold up I find myself ahead 20BB's. So overall I'm neither really gaining or losing.

To shake up my game I was considering playing a few sessions using the loose charts and holding onto my chair. It would certainly put me out of my comfort range of starting hands and position, but maybe that's what I need to jumpstart my game.

Sound like a good idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

Go back to the last session you played. Take the first 100 hands (or last 100 hands). Post only the preflop action for all 100 hands (break them up into groups of 20 for each post). This has been done several times before so it shouldn't be a big deal. If you catch a lot of flak, just ask for a few volunteers to go over sets of 100 hands once a week or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great idea Jeff. Sas pm me I will take a look at some HH's for you.