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Greg J
03-14-2005, 02:09 PM
Hey guys. I am trying to expand my poker horizons, and read about O8 in SS2, and really find it fascinating. Limit hold em ring games have been my bread and butter, as well as some NL tourneys. I’ve done well at both, but would really like to be adept at other games, and this one appeals to me. So, I have scrolled through several pages of this forum, and found some of the post very enlightening. There are a few things I would like expounded upon though if that is cool. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I have done a little reading up on this board, and am trying not to shoot from the hip here too much and waste everyone’s time.

Just to clarify, I am asking exclusively about O8 limit, not PLO8, which I might take up later, probably when I decide to step into tournaments.

PTO – how useful is the program? I use PT for hold em and PV to keep track of my opponents, and from what I understand PV now works with PTO on Party. Anyone use PV for O8? I live by it for LHE, just wondering what you guys thought. (Yeah, I am one of “those” geeky players who love online poker b/c B&M does not have the little green, red, yellow and orange numbers floating over everyone’s heads. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

VPIP – in Hold em I’m a bit tight (vp ~15, four tabling). Should my preflop play include an automuck for anything without an ace in ep? Is a vpip ~20 acceptable, if I start off two tabling? This brings me to something I loath doing in LHE: cold calling. In MP, how bad it is to cold call A2xx offsuit? I want to say call, but again, totally newb here.

Aggression – I drink the standard 2+2 koolaid as far as aggression goes, but it seems that sometimes being more passive can pay off in this game, such as going for overcalls with a nut low draw. One interesting post here read “don’t push your nut lows with zero high potential.” Is this generally correct?

Variance – any poker will have swings. How does O8 variance compare to LHE? More? Less? Bankroll is not an issue for me as I will start out at .5/1 and hopefully make a little as I learn the game, though I would like an idea of what I’m getting myself into. It seems from what I read on a post here, I can actually expect smaller swings that I experienced at LHE. I guess I’m looking for confirmation of this.

Resources – what texts are recommended on this board for newer players? I’m sure there is a “standard” book for newer players, but maybe I am wrong. I’ve read the Baldwin section of SS2, and that seems helpful. (Really, I would be more comfortable with a 2+2 book, but I know that none specific to this game exists yet.) Any thoughts on where to go from there? Also, are there any sort of odds charts and hand reading exercises anyone could recommend?

Profitability – I’m going to ask the really drool question of what a “good” longterm winrate is. Intuitively I would think it would be similar to HE, but that is b/c that is my point of reference. However, is there also a chance that a good player can make more at this game than the others, precisely b/c the sheer number of factors one has to consider will confuse the hell out of recreational, weaker players? I mean, as I read on a thread here, to bad players EVERY hand can look good. Relatedly, how high in limits does this phenomenon occur?

Thanks much. That is a lot of questions I know, and I don’t expect everyone who responds to answer them all. Any thoughts on any of these topics are appreciated – just whatever jumps out at you that you feel you know best. I might ask other questions if they come to me.

/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Greg

FeliciaLee
03-14-2005, 02:37 PM
Okay, I'm game! My background is Stud, so I'm tighter than tight. I'm also a Zee disciple, so I will quote him and maybe not give him credit, at the time, so here is the credit up front! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Aggression – I drink the standard 2+2 koolaid as far as aggression goes, but it seems that sometimes being more passive can pay off in this game, such as going for overcalls with a nut low draw. One interesting post here read “don’t push your nut lows with zero high potential.” Is this generally correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
It is often correct to be very passive until you have the mortal nuts in O8. This applies mostly to low limit, super loose games. I go for overcalls a lot in a game where six people are calling the river. I figure if EP bets and I raise, I will make a heck of a lot less than if I get those overcalls, especially if I'm playing for 1/2 the pot or less (EP bet, I raise, zero overcalls=2 big bets max. EP bet, I call, four overcalls=3 big bets max, and 50% of the risk as above if I am quartered).

[ QUOTE ]
Variance – any poker will have swings. How does O8 variance compare to LHE? More? Less? Bankroll is not an issue for me as I will start out at .5/1 and hopefully make a little as I learn the game, though I would like an idea of what I’m getting myself into. It seems from what I read on a post here, I can actually expect smaller swings that I experienced at LHE. I guess I’m looking for confirmation of this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Less, if you continue to play as tight as you are now, and you are playing in loose, clueless, low limit games. I book less losses in these games than I do LHE. It is more on par with NLHE cash games, yet with much less risk of losing a buy-in with one hand!

[ QUOTE ]
Resources – what texts are recommended on this board for newer players? I’m sure there is a “standard” book for newer players, but maybe I am wrong. I’ve read the Baldwin section of SS2, and that seems helpful. (Really, I would be more comfortable with a 2+2 book, but I know that none specific to this game exists yet.) Any thoughts on where to go from there? Also, are there any sort of odds charts and hand reading exercises anyone could recommend?


[/ QUOTE ]
Run, do not walk, to Ray Zee's excellent book: High/Low Split Poker for Advanced Players. A $25 investment will yield $2500 in no time at all, if you play wisely.

[ QUOTE ]
Profitability – I’m going to ask the really drool question of what a “good” longterm winrate is. Intuitively I would think it would be similar to HE, but that is b/c that is my point of reference. However, is there also a chance that a good player can make more at this game than the others, precisely b/c the sheer number of factors one has to consider will confuse the hell out of recreational, weaker players? I mean, as I read on a thread here, to bad players EVERY hand can look good. Relatedly, how high in limits does this phenomenon occur?

[/ QUOTE ]
I do not get much of a chance to play in middle/higher limit cash games. I think 5/10 with a half kill is the highest I've played O8. I usually play the LL passive games, and then tourneys. The highest buy-in tourney I've played was a $1500 event, I freerolled by winning a satellite prior to the event.

I made a deal when we got down to three. It was a chip count deal, but since we were all so close in chips, it was virtually even.

I have not cashed in any other O8 events yet, except low buy-in $25 events, which I don't count, because towards the end of the tournament, they turn into NLO8.

I have played in only one other big buy-in event (since Stud is my A game), but failed to cash. I plan on playing in all of the Plaza O8 events, starting next month, because they are promising a structure that is so good it is akin to a cash game. Being a tightwad player, this will benefit me, as the $1500 event did last October.

Please keep posting, everyone on this forum is very helpful.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif
www.felicialee.net (http://www.felicialee.net)

benfranklin
03-14-2005, 03:45 PM
PTO: It just came out in beta, and there hasn't been much discussion yet about use, statistics, etc. I'm assuming that it will be a useful tool once you get a database.

Cold-calling: I would limp preflop with A2xx, I would not cold call a raise. The raiser probably has A2xx also, so if there is a low, and if the other idiot doesn't jam with his nut low and drive out the dead draws, you get quartered and maybe break even.

Aggression: There are no made hands preflop in O8, and therefore every hand is a draw at this point. I rarely raise preflop. About the only exception would be a very strong hand (such as the magical AA23 DS) in the cutoff or button. One good place for aggression is on the flop, if you have all high cards and 2 high cards come on the flop. I bet/raise here to drive out the low draws, increasing the chance to scoop.

Variance: O8 generally has less variance than a similar game of HE. You should be winning more pots in O8 than in HE, though most of those will be split pots. The split pots should keep you even, and the occasional scoop will be the gravy.

Resources: The O8 book by Tenner and Krieger is a good intro to the game. Zee's book is the current bible. The SS2 chapter is pretty good; I'd rank it in between the previous two. Ciaffone's book is THE book on Omaha, but lacks depth on O8. Cappelletti's book on O8 is also very good. Two very good web sites are
Steve Badger (http://www.playwinningpoker.com/) and Crockpot (http://www.winningonlinepoker.com/)

I have the strategy guides from both sites printed out and in a 3-ring binder, and I reread them regularly.

Profitability: Take a look at Mike Cappelletti's articles at the CardPlayer web site. He has a lot of good stuff there. One of the things he talks about is that, unlike HE and regular Omaha, in O8 the good player has a very big edge over the bad player, but an expert player has only a small edge over a good player. He also talks about Cappelletti's Rule, which is that in a low limit 10 player game, you want an average of 5 or more seeing the flop. If it's 4 or less on average, it's best to find another game if possible.

QuickLearner
03-14-2005, 04:08 PM
Dogma violation alert:

I agree with practically everything in both responses, with one small exception to BenFranklin. I will cold call a raise with A2 (going for Felicia's overcalls) if my four cards are working together, i.e. A2 with a suited ace; A2 with another prime card; A2 with a big pair. I'll only do it with a chance to get those calls...so no late calls after everybody else has folded.

You'd be surprised to see how many pre-flop raises are by marginal players or converted holdem players who are infatuated with their pocket aces or middle straight.

Edit to add book recs. Tenner/Kreiger is the Winning Low Limit Hold'em of Omaha, but I liked it. Cappelletti's book was worthwhile, too. Zee is the stonecoldmortalRomanlocknuts. SS2 ig good. There are Omaha tidbits in the Poker Essays series; if they're in your library you probably missed most when you read them for Texas holdem or stud.

benfranklin
03-14-2005, 05:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I will cold call a raise with A2 (going for Felicia's overcalls) if my four cards are working together

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I assumed A2xx meant A-2-rag-rag, like A279 or A26T. Depending on the situation, I would cold-call a raise with something like A236, A2QQ, etc.



[ QUOTE ]
You'd be surprised to see how many pre-flop raises are by marginal players or converted holdem players who are infatuated with their pocket aces or middle straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

And those aren't the really bad players. I've seen preflop raises with stuff like KKK7 and 8h9hThJh. But I'm guessing 7 times out of 10, a preflop raise is A2, with or without something else.