I am a call box

[Apathy]

Comments welcome on all streets, I think I should have either mucked on the flop (I hate that though) or moved in the turn/or river thoughts?

Seat 10: DeCordova ( $1487 )
Seat 5: whiskers7 ( $720 )
Seat 6: hemlock13 ( $1000 )
Seat 7: xMethTicalx ( $940 )
Seat 9: ninott ( $885 )
Seat 3: Pine008 ( $973 )
Seat 2: blowfish83 ( $945 )
Seat 1: Al22ex ( $1090 )
Trny:10382834 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to blaydzfsteel [ Ks Ad ]
xMethTicalx folds.
nathanrc folds.
ninott folds.
DeCordova raises [80].
Al22ex folds.
blowfish83 folds.
Pine008 folds.
blaydzfsteel calls [80].
whiskers7 folds.
hemlock13 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, Th, 4s ]
DeCordova bets [150].
blaydzfsteel calls [150].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
DeCordova bets [150].
blaydzfsteel calls [150].
** Dealing River ** [ 9h ]
DeCordova bets [150].
blaydzfsteel folds.
DeCordova does not show cards.
DeCordova wins 935 chips

[shejk]

I don't see your stack size in the original post.

I'd only call the flop with the intention to raise the turn. Most times I'd just fold the flop though.

[Voltron87]

Pretty bad. You're behind on the flop 4/5 times. Why are you calling the flop?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, Th, 4s ]
DeCordova bets [150].
blaydzfsteel calls [150].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
DeCordova bets [150].
blaydzfsteel calls [150].


[/ QUOTE ]

I would have folded this hand post flop. But I think you might have had an opportunity to win this hand right here.. (see bold above).

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, Th, 4s ]
DeCordova bets [150].
blaydzfsteel calls [150].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
DeCordova bets [150].
blaydzfsteel calls [150].


[/ QUOTE ]

I would have folded this hand post flop. But I think you might have had an opportunity to win this hand right here.. (see bold above).

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually think an all in would be called here. Though I'm using the 150 bet on the river in that thought. Just a hunch. I don't think there is much fold equity here, and hero doesn't have that many outs.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, Th, 4s ]
DeCordova bets [150].
blaydzfsteel calls [150].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
DeCordova bets [150].
blaydzfsteel calls [150].


[/ QUOTE ]

I would have folded this hand post flop. But I think you might have had an opportunity to win this hand right here.. (see bold above).

[/ QUOTE ]

n1 scuba...i agree completely...that spade is perfect and villain kept his bet the same (90% of time weakness). "Why would hero be calling the flop" thought villain on the turn. *Hero raises* "Oh, because he was drawing to the flush" MUCK

good eye scoobs

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty bad. You're behind on the flop 4/5 times. Why are you calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have several outs if I am behind, with backdoor spades, position, implied odds and an opponent who could very easily be making a continuation bet, who would slow down when I call.

That's why I called, but that may not be enough reasons (seriously) it may be a fold on the flop, what do others think?

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty bad. You're behind on the flop 4/5 times. Why are you calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have several outs if I am behind, with backdoor spades, position, implied odds and an opponent who could very easily be making a continuation bet, who would slow down when I call.

That's why I called, but that may not be enough reasons (seriously) it may be a fold on the flop, what do others think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you have implied odds, backdoor spades are not a reason to call, and if he is making a continuation bet don't just flat call.

[Apathy]

A great tool to defend against a continuation bet is the smooth call in position, raising here is much worse then calling IMO especially with my four nut outs (He doesnt have two spades) and two overs.

That way if he is making a continuation bet with a pair of 99's or worse or Ak, AQ, etc usually he will check the turn and I take the pot away there.

The turn brought an interesting card giving me a flush draw with the inside str8 draw, two overs and he gave me good odds which is why I just called. Who else hates the flop call? And who raises the turn?

[pokerlaw]

The flop call is exactly how so many people lose a lot of chips w AK. Backdoor spades happens so infrequently, it is best to never even consider it.

I don't understand your position and implied odds arguuments either...Scuba raised a nice point about the turn raise. If you are going to stay in for the flop bet, do that (push when flush comes up).

One more thing, an ace in this situation might not give you anything, since if villian holds A10, AJ, or QK...not good times. While those options may be fairly remote, they are more likely than a backdoor flush.

[Apathy]

Ok, I think I'm not being very clear on my line and its making people focus on the wrong aspects of this hand.

The flop call is a semi-bluff call to set up a turn bluff if my opponent checks the turn.

I smooth call the turn because I picked up additional outs (spades) and I was being laid good pot odds, BUT should I have raised the turn is my question. I assume noone advocates folding the turn?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I think I'm not being very clear on my line and its making people focus on the wrong aspects of this hand.

The flop call is a semi-bluff call to set up a turn bluff if my opponent checks the turn.

I smooth call the turn because I picked up additional outs (spades) and I was being laid good pot odds, BUT should I have raised the turn is my question. I assume noone advocates folding the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

the point is that there is no point in calling the flop if you're not going to "make a move" on the turn...the spade, imo, is a great card to push on if that's your style...otherwise fold. The turn call is terrible...not to be cliche'd but you turned AK into 72.

(and at least w/ 72 you're better than A high on the turn)

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I think I'm not being very clear on my line and its making people focus on the wrong aspects of this hand.

The flop call is a semi-bluff call to set up a turn bluff if my opponent checks the turn.

I smooth call the turn because I picked up additional outs (spades) and I was being laid good pot odds, BUT should I have raised the turn is my question. I assume noone advocates folding the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

the point is that there is no point in calling the flop if you're not going to "make a move" on the turn...the spade, imo, is a great card to push on if that's your style...otherwise fold. The turn call is terrible...not to be cliche'd but you turned AK into 72.

(and at least w/ 72 you're better than A high on the turn)

[/ QUOTE ]

Im getting 3.2 to 1 with more then 10 outs... and you think the turn call is terrible?

[byronkincaid]

Am I the only person who reraises preflop with AK? Maybe I'm being fishified by the $22s but if I can get all in with AK in level 1 then I do it without a seconds hesitation.

[Benholio]

[ QUOTE ]
Im getting 3.2 to 1 with more then 10 outs... and you think the turn call is terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get into the habit of counting all of your outs as good when they are not nut outs. Only 3 of your outs are guaranteed. You don't have any help from implied odds except when a (non-spade) Queen hits. If you hit your flush, you will either lose the rest of your chips if he has the ace (or a full house), or win nothing extra if he doesn't. You also will often draw to a second place hand when an A or K hits. (2 pair or a straight)

I think the turn call is pretty close, though.

I don't like the flop call at all though. You are investing 150 chips to either (a) draw with bad odds, or (b) bluff. Neither one of these things are good to do in the early levels.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im getting 3.2 to 1 with more then 10 outs... and you think the turn call is terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get into the habit of counting all of your outs as good when they are not nut outs. Only 3 of your outs are guaranteed. You don't have any help from implied odds except when a (non-spade) Queen hits. If you hit your flush, you will either lose the rest of your chips if he has the ace (or a full house), or win nothing extra if he doesn't. You also will often draw to a second place hand when an A or K hits. (2 pair or a straight)

I think the turn call is pretty close, though.

I don't like the flop call at all though. You are investing 150 chips to either (a) draw with bad odds, or (b) bluff. Neither one of these things are good to do in the early levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

what he said...theyre not all clean outs...maybe they are...who knows...just smells of weak/passive play.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Im getting 3.2 to 1 with more then 10 outs... and you think the turn call is terrible?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think at best you can consider this a small edge. Let small edges go in STTs. Generally, you can find a better edge to play - later.

I think this is your choice of play.

1) Fold post flop, or
2) Have a plan to put all your chips in the middle at some point after the flop call. Whatever it is, whether it completes your hand or not - assuming what you represent is evident. The turn was your ticket.