Capping Flop For Free Card

[theBruiser500]

Seems like a lot of draws out there, I have a lot outs to underpairs and pairs and could be good to draws, even to a jack (although granted JQ and JT have me in bad shape). So I raise the flop so I can take a free card on the turn (and maybe call a river bet if rags fall?).

Then he 3 bets, [censored]. Capping for a free card turn is pretty sophisticated, I like making really cool plays. How about the fact that the board is paired with jacks and he could very easily have a jack affect things? I'm thinking it might make my free card play bad because it's not worth it, cause I'm just trying to get a free card to hit a Q now which may or may not be good instead of having 6 pair outs and 4 gutshots. Thoughts on this whole hand?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG posts a blind of $15.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG (poster) calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (6.66 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (9.33 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (9.33 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.33 BB

[einbert]

I play it the same. You probably have ten outs twice so you're not losing much money by this (because of the sandwiched caller) and you're definitely gaining value if the free card works often at all.

The river card sucks though, you caught just enough of a hand that you have to pay off. If MP1 calls I think this is an easy fold, as it is I think it is close. I mean you really don't beat anything except a total bluff, is this guy bluff 3-betting the flop one out of ten times here? I don't know.

EDIT: I guess he could have spades or 89 specifically as well as a bluff, so that makes it a little closer. Still not sure.

[theBruiser500]

I think he'll hav a missed draw enough of the time on the river to warrant the call.

[hockey1]

Between this post and the 66 post it's pretty clear that you're spewing chips.

[ QUOTE ]
I like making really cool plays

[/ QUOTE ] That you'd ever think this, let alone post it, suggests that you're losing A LOT of money that you shouldn't be. I'm not sure what a "cool play" is, but my guess is that they'd be +EV. This isn't.

Do you realize that you have NO clean outs here and could be drawing almost dead? (Ok, a Q is probably clean, but it wouldn't be shocking if one of your opponents had QJ or JT) Capping the flop is plain foolish.

[Ray Zee]

capping for a free card is a good play. but in this pot i kinda like folding on the flop. i dont see any good cards that can fall for you hand.

[theBruiser500]

woah didn't consider that getting 9:1 but I see your point. 10 outs but on closer analysis, these guys have something, maybe a jack, maybe a striaght or flush draw and there are two of them. The As and Ks are not in my hand which means that 2/6 outs give other people flush, and no running flush, plus all A and K outs are bad if these dudes have straight draws QK, Q9, plus JQ, JT, AJ... Still though getting 9:1 in position...

[antifish225]

I think u need to fold this on the flop - drawing to a gut sghot with a pair on the board in the 'playing zone' is just not smart poker - if I was in the hand I would be thinking that I MAYBE have one clean out with Q (maybe) - other than that the hands that could have been calling my pre-flop raise are likely either on trips or a tigh (TJ, JQ, KJ, AJ - all calling hands given the late position post)....keep it simple, fancy plays maybe 'fun' - however I have always found making money more 'fun'.....jmho

[TStoneMBD]

i dont agree with zee at all. there is no way you can fold this flop. in fact, in order to dispute zee, he says that you should fold the flop but cap for a free card. you are better off folding after it came back to you at 3bets, even with the better pot odds, then if you had folded on the flop originally.

i dont like the flop raise. in a game as aggressive as this youll get 3bet very often. you have almost no chance to buy a free card, but the added benefit of raising this flop is that if you do successfully buy a free card, then your hand is usually good at this point.

having said that, after its 3bets back to you i also like the cap.

[theBruiser500]

it's always fun deciphering what zee means in his broken english. i think he is saying that in general capping for a free card can be a good play bt not in this particular pot.

[SeaEagle]

Your implied odds are less than 9:1 though because there are no cards that can make you confident you're winning (and thus build the pot). Likewise, your position is almost valueless in this hand. I think a fold is a pretty easy choice with two other people in the hand.

If you are going to stay for the turn, I think capping the pot is just goofy. This is not a spot where you can count on a free card - I would expect the first player to come out betting well over half the time, since slowplaying this pot with this board isn't very bright on anything but a full house and in that case you're drawing dead anyway.

--SeaEagle

[bobbyi]

The three-bet is questionable, but once we've gotten there, I like the cap. Even if someone has a jack, it looks like you have an overpair, so once you cap they will probably go for a check-raise on the turn (figuring you won't raise again if they lead into you after you've capped on this flop, so they make the most by check-raising), and you'll get your free card.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

you have the button in this hand, did just calling the flop ever cross your mind? when you raise this flop you will be getting 3-bet a good amount of time.

i would never cap for a free card on this board either.

[SeaEagle]

Check-raising with this board and any J other than QJ (or JT) is nuts. Even QJ is a bad C/R with the flush draw on board.

Unless you know UTG is a moron, capping this flop for a free card doesn't make sense.

--Seaeagle

[mikelow]

Played like a true maniac.

[Luke]

hi Ray,

i think you need to pull up a chair and play some party poker, just for a little while at least. you'll really get a chuckle at how some of those guys play.

for what it's worth, i really don't think bruiser can fold this flop given the aggressiveness of these people, especially on the flop.

luke

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
Played like a true maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a TRUE maniac, I'm just a clown, often times my play is weak-tight.

[Ray Zee]

its not broken english its broken typing skills. i dont usually go over my posts and correct for the typing mistakes or dyslectic spellings or such.
this pot you could certainly just call on the flop as well as fold. calling may be better. but in general you will run into too many hnads that beat you even when you hit, or they rehit to make money against these kind of boards with weak hands when not headup.

[MaxPower]

On the flop, between folding, calling and raising, raising has to be the worst option.

[PokerDork]

I was going to ask for a read on UTG, but the fact that he posted UTG probably answers my question, if he didn't post UTG is this river a fold for anyone other than me? In fact I think it could still be depending on what PT/notes have to say.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Are we talking about folding to the initial flop bet or to the 3-bet?

[BK_]

just flat call the initial flop bet.. you get 3 bet too often here, you arnt gaining much turn fold equity by raising here, and you want to see a turn card.