Ridiculous Barry Bonds stat

[Uston]

"Even if Bonds had gone 0-for-403 at the plate this year instead of 149-for-403, the walks and the nine times he was hit by pitches would have given him a .338 on-base percentage -- higher than New York Yankees leadoff hitter Alfonso Soriano (.332)."

This is especially insane considering Soriano will almost certainly finish in the top three or four in AL MVP voting. I could live another 70 years and I would be shocked if I ever saw a player have a better two years than Bonds just had.

[andyfox]

I think a lot of people don't realize what a great player Bonds was even before his last two years. He was without a doubt the greatest player of the 1990s and one of the 7 or 8 greatest players of all-time [i] before [/] 2001.

Can anyone explain to me why Baker bats Kent in front of Bonds? Wouldn't Bonds get more pitches to hit with Kent on deck instead of Santiago?

[Uston]

Andy-I think it has more to do with Kent's production in the three spot than anything else. In 64 less at bats, he has five more HRs and two more RBI (!!!) as well as a .387 OBP (compared to .354) and a .667 SLG (compared to .484). Bonds' production has been very similar no matter where he has hit in the order.

And, yes, that "Who's the best player of his generation...Bonds or Griffey?" debate (which was decidedly in Bonds' favor before the 2001 season, in my opinion) has been put to rest in a major way.

[B-Man]

Before 2001, Bonds was Mr. Consistency--consistently excellent, that is. A lock for the Hall of Fame. In 2001 and 2002 his numbers were outrageous.

That being said, I disagree that he was "one of the 7 or 8 greatest players of all-time before 2001." While his numbers the last two seasons are unbelievable, I am fairly certain he (along with Sammy, Luis Gonzalez, Canseco, McGwire, Caminiti, and many others in recent years to be sure) was on steroids last season, and probably this year as well. That puts a little taint on his numbers, at least to me (how many home runs would Ted Williams have hit if he was on steroids?). Also, ther last two years have been dominated by hitters--home runs are off the charts, probably because of a combination of factors including smaller ballparks, expansions (diluted pitching) and a livelier ball. So take those factors into account as well.

Bonds is a lock for the Hall of Fame, as he was before 2001. But I don't think I would put him ahead of Ruth, Williams, Mays, Aaron, Cobb, Musial, Gehrig, Mantle, or pitchers Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Cy Young, Warren Spahn, or Roger Clemens (or maybe even Pedro Martinez, who is the best pitcher ever, but has only played 11 seasons), and certainly not without his 2001 and 2002 seasons.

[andyfox]

As to steroids, I think, but cannot prove, that you are correct. Paul Waner, a Hall of Famer, and a drunk, used to claim that being a little tipsy made the ball look big and fuzzy to him and he hit better that way. More likely, it relaxed him. Hard for me to decide whether records should be discounted based on whether someone used a performance enhancing drug. But it's certainly something to think about.

As for the greater offensive context, I have examined Bonds' record in context. That is, considering the greater number of runs being scored, the ballparks he's played in, etc., I rate him, before 2001, above Musial, Gehrig, Mathewson, Mantle, and Clemens. I know that's saying a lot and it certainly is not an open-and-shut case.

BTW, I am pleased to see you include Musial and Spahn on your list of greatest players, as it seems they get neglected in much of these discussions, undeservedly so in my judgment.

It will be interesting to see how Maddux and Glavine, two future Hall of Famers themselves, deal with Barry.

[B-Man]

Musial is probably the most underrated player in history.

The most overrated player is Cal Ripken, Jr. The streak is nice, but you want to talk about an iron man, Brett Favre is an iron man. He has started every game for 10 years (!) playing quarterback in the NFL! If Ripken played today he would be the fifth or sixth best shortstop in the AL.

The most overrated pitcher is Nolan Ryan, the leading vote-getting on the All-Century Team. Ridiculous. There are at least four pitchers playing in 2002 that have had better careers than Ryan (Clemens, Maddux, Pedro, Big Unit), maybe five (Glavine).

As for how Glavine and Maddux fare against Barry, if they are smart, they wont give him anything to hit. He is still at the top of his game, they are not. Barry against Pedro... that would be a hell of a matchup. He wasn't one of the 5 all-stars that struck out against Pedro in his 2 innings in the '99 all-star game, was he?

[Uston]

He wasn't one of the 5 all-stars that struck out against Pedro in his 2 innings in the '99 all-star game, was he?

Nope. Barry wasn't even an All-Star in 1999.

Great call on Ryan and Ripken, although I think there are more overrated players than Cal, such as Mark Grace, Tony Gwynn, and Kirby Puckett. My vote for the most overrated player in baseball history is Vince Coleman from 85' to 90'.

[andyfox]

FWIW, Bill James ranked Ripken as the 3rd greatest shortstop ever (behind Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughn and the 48th greatest player ever.

He ranks Musial the 2nd greatest ever in left field (behind Williams) and the 10th greatest player ever.

He ranks Nolan Ryan the 24th greatest picther ever, and not in the top 100 on his 100 greatest players list.

Don't remember if Bonds was among the 5 in a row in 1999.

[Nick B.]

Actually I think it has more to do with Soriano's completely overrated season. He had 696 ABs and only 23 walks. A .332 OBP is horrible, especially for a leadoff hitter. Soriano led all 2b in errors. He had as many errors as walks, which is next to impossible to do. Bonds is a great player, Soriano is not.