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View Full Version : Playing Overcards on the Flop


dark_horse
03-14-2005, 01:25 AM
in my quest to not ram and jam too much with overcards on the flop, i'd like to devise a roundabout (but in no way "use this every time") code on when to fold and when to keep playing on the flop when you don't hit your AK or what have you.

let's say UTG limps, you raise on the button, SB folds, BB calls, and UTG calls. that puts 6.5 SB into the pot. for the sake of this theory, let's say you have no reads on anyone, but if you're bet at, you know you're behind. BB checks and UTG bets out, putting 7.5 SB into the pot. you believe your 6 outs are all good, and you need 6.7:1 to call. the pot is laying you good odds so you call, knowing the free card play won't work with this particular player because most likely he'll bet again on the turn (if you believe free card play works, use it, but for this theory and in order to make the decision "easier" let's say we know he bets out on turn).

BB calls, and the turn brings no help. BB checks, UTG bets again. this time you believe BB will fold no matter what you do. that puts 5.75 BB into the pot, so we fold.

now let's change the situation. let's say UTG limps, we raise, and both blinds fold and we're heads up. 5.5 SB in pot before flop. flop comes no help and SB bets out. the pot has 6.5 SB in it, and we need 6.7:1 to call. it's tough to lay down here, but should we most of the time, considering UTG is not tricky and will bet out with any pair?

so, trying to formulate a basic rule of thumb. if you are only in the pot with one limper or the BB and they bet out at you on the flop, fold. if you're in there with two or more players, stick around for the turn. again, this is all assuming free card play rarely works. i know poker is a game of situations. but it's nice to have these little theories in the back of your head to keep your emotions grounded and decisions sound.

zeropotential
03-14-2005, 01:31 AM
SSH has a nice chapter on this and i'm sure it contains better information then most could reply

thesharpie
03-14-2005, 01:32 AM
Fold heads up with overcards, yet call when it's 3 way because the pot has 1BB extra in it? Seems a bit weird advice. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

dark_horse
03-14-2005, 01:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
SSH has a nice chapter on this and i'm sure it contains better information then most could reply

[/ QUOTE ]

I've read that chapter and SSH twice. It's all about treating overcards as a drawing hand, hence the ideas behind this post.

dark_horse
03-14-2005, 01:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Fold heads up with overcards, yet call when it's 3 way because the pot has 1BB extra in it? Seems a bit weird advice. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? In one situation you have the odds to call, and in the other one you don't. Casinos make their fortunes by taking very small edges away from their players. Over time, if you make that call each and every time on the flop heads up, you lose money.

thesharpie
03-14-2005, 02:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold heads up with overcards, yet call when it's 3 way because the pot has 1BB extra in it? Seems a bit weird advice. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? In one situation you have the odds to call, and in the other one you don't. Casinos make their fortunes by taking very small edges away from their players. Over time, if you make that call each and every time on the flop heads up, you lose money.

[/ QUOTE ]

But in the heads up example assuming you hit one of your outs and it's the best hand, which is more likely than if it were 3 handed, the implied odds make up for the one less BB.

Also when it's 3 way there's a slim chance it could get reraised on the flop, and like I already said, less likely to be the best hand if you hit one of your outs.

dark_horse
03-14-2005, 02:56 AM
Yeah, if you hit one of your outs, which you don't have the odds to pay to see. Anyway, if the person OOP knows it's heads up when he's betting into you, he could be making a play. It all depends on the opponent. But this example was written with the predictable player in mind. Hey, if nothing else, at least you know you have odds to call one bet on the flop if it's multiway, and not if it's heads up and it was only raised once heads up.

Isura
03-14-2005, 10:15 AM
With 3 players and UTG betting into the pf raiser, no way can you assume that all your outs are good on the flop. 60% of the time the board will contain 2 suited cards, so unless the board is low and monotone you can't always assume you're getting 7 to 1 to draw. Plus, when one of your overcards is an Ace, it's much more likey that you're drawing dead against Ax, especially with UTG betting and a player behind. Also, you mentioned that UTG will bet also on the turn, but what about when an overcard hits that doesn't make you a pair? Or you have a backdoor flush draw that picks up the 4'th suited card. In these situations raising the flop is usually better since you'll probably get the free card. Overcards are tough, but I think trying to devise little theories for specific situations is not very helpful. Better to treat each situation differently, and post specific hands you're having trouble with.