Hold'em tournament final table.

[mongeron]

Hello all,

One question about a hand.

PokerStars NL Hold'em tourney, final table, three players left.
: Big stack, T68797, me, T51463, and smallest stack, T37240.

I am on the big blind. Small stack and big stack calls, I check with 5h9d.

Flop comes 9s5dJs, making two bottom pair for me. Big stack and I check, small stack bets T9000, big stack raises all-in, I call all-in.

How was my play at this point? The big stack had the habit of raising all-in with various cards, so I was quite sure he had only one pair, which he indeed had.

The river brought him higher two pair, and I was out.

Well, I guess there was nothing I could have done, because he most likely would have called with the top pair anyway.

Thanks,

- mongeron

If you get free ride on the big blind and flop 2 pr, your only play to have a chance of winning the hand is to push-in and hope no one calls. Playing bottom two pair and check-and-call is about as weak as you can get.

Heads-up or three way is "bet and Take-it" time. If you don't lead bet, you should have mucked it. Bottom two pair is not a slow play hand, you have no chips to 'push' with after the flop. This is not a 'pull' situation. After you check the Big stack had to expect you were going to fold and he was going to take out the short stack, but you commited suicide by falling on your sword. With your stack just short of the big stack, he would have a difficult time calling a hand that would cripple him after you'd have bet all-in. You made the over call with the best hand but played weak. I really don't see how you could call all-in with a bet and raise in front of you (that's bad poker). Final table three way action should be no flops seen unless you are trapping with monster hand (AA is only thing that qualifies as monster, here).
Apparently, you <font color="red"> read </font color> a book on tournament poker but did not <font color="blue"> study </font color>the advise of the author

[lorinda]

Another poster who is resorting to posting bad information under the cover of darkness.
For what it's worth mongeron, I think that if you get someone to get their whole stack in three handed in a no limit tourney, and you are favourite to win the pot, then you have done the right thing (given normal circumstances, no stupidly short stacks etc).
The only thing you did wrong in the pot was that you forgot to fill up your house /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

If all chips were equallish,and you win that pot two thirds of the time, you will also win the tourney two thirds of the time from the ensuing winning of the pot, then you have just become 44% chance of winning the tourney, which, in stars top heavy structure, represents a big increase in the cash you will win.
Previously you would be 3rd 33%, 2nd 33% 1st 33%, now you have become 3rd 33%, 2nd 22% 1st 44%
If you push all in, you probably move from 33% to 35% or something equally insignificant.
Nice play, and hard lines /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

[lorinda]

Sorry, just checked out the chip positions, you were not going to get a better chance to win the tourney than this, sure you could probably have folded and held for 2nd, but you dont know which of the other guys is in front.
Im even more sure that you played correctly now, since if you win this pot, which you are favorite in, you are monster leader, if short calls also, and you both lose, you still get 2nd prize.
You said it yourself "I was pretty sure he had one pair, and thats what he had" you read it right, you dont get two pair against a "known" one pair very often,also if you give this pot up, the guy is going to have a big stack, and you will probably end up raising with Ax several times until he catches you.

[Ignatius]

&gt; Flop comes 9s5dJs, making two bottom pair for me. Big stack and I check,

With two cards in the play-zone, possible flush and str8 draws on board, betting out is a must, esp. with a hand as vulnerable as bottom twopair.

&gt; small stack bets T9000, big stack raises all-in, I call all-in.

If you are confident of you read, you obviously have to call, but you don't like it: while you are a 5:2 favorite over a hand like QJ (2:1 vs. JTs and only 4:3 vs. Xs5s), the SS might have hit a monster and overcall and losing the hand will mean 3rd place money.

cu

Ignatius

[YourMom]

Is not played on PokerStars. Its definitely rigged. My post in the Internet Gambling section scientificaly proves it. And the poll I put up asking if others thought it was rigged has 100 percent of people saying it is (that 100 percent being me, the only voter). So what you SHOULD have done in that situation is be playing on any other site, where the best hand holds up sometimes.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Please take the conspiracy theories to the "Internet Gambling" forum where they (apparently) belong.

I've won quite a bit of money on Pokerstars, and have no doubt it is more honest than any other site. That doesn't mean that I think any of the sites are dishonest themselves, but Pokerstars does not seem to suffer from the intentional all-in abuse that I saw frequently at some other sites.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I like your play. Betting out might have been better just because you don't want this flop to be checked around, and there's only one person behind you to bet it for you. Other than that concern, two pair, even bottom two pair, is a good trapping hand when the money is no longer very deep and you're only playing 3-handed.

To suggest that you should've bet the flop all-in because you want them to fold is an example of weak-tight play, in my opinion. It is a desire to reduce risk that has gone so far that profitability is significantly suffering.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[ohkanada]

I think how you played it was fine. I probably bet out but you had players commit all their chips as an underdog.

I had my stack crippled last year in a live tourney in a similar situation. In my case I flopped bottom 2 and bet out, I was raised and then I re-raised all-in. The river wasn't nice to me.

Ken Poklitar

Considering that you only had four outs to fill up and make what looked like to be the nuts. But the flush had nine outs. And even a lone jack still had two outs to beat your current hand. I might have folded to play a better hand.

Your read on him looked be right. And it looked like he was using his 15% chip lead on you and his 30% chip lead against the small stack to bully you two around. Even if he busted the small stack. That would have only made him slight better then 2 to 1 chip leader.

I believe that had you waited and took him trying to bully you around. Waited till you got 2 or 3 good hands. You could have easily busted him out. Your stack was still very healthy and you didn't have to worry about being blinded into a short stack for a wile.

Your medium two pairs didn't justify putting in your stack in against trips or a flush draw.

Any comments, any one ??????

[shogun]

I think you're losing sight of the fact that he flopped two pair playing three handed. If you're beat, tip your hat and buy-in for the next tourney. I agree with Fossil Man that the real danger is letting the flop get checked around and giving free cards to the POSSIBLE, though they're only three-handed, draws. With your knowledge of the player I would never fold. It's easy to talk yourself out of the hand after you check and it gets bet and raised, after all you were the one who was supposed to raise, but keep it in perspective, it's hard to beat two pair short handed.