What do you do against preflop tilters?

[gh9801]

PP 20+2 SNG

UTG chases way too much and is very loose preflop. He is your classic 20+2 super fish. However, within the first ten hands he caught some lucky hands and went up to about 2200 chips. After a reality check now he is down to ~650 and is tilting.


15/30 blinds
UTG goes allin for ~650
all fold to Hero in SB with AKo (~750)

Most likely has any two, but quite possibly A-x (which is the only hand I should want to see, right?). What's my play?

[elonkra]

Fold. I don't think you wanna go up against 33 here and risk your tourney on a coinflip when its still very early with very small blinds and you're in no trouble whatsoever. Take his chips later.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold. I don't think you wanna go up against 33 here and risk your tourney on a coinflip when its still very early with very small blinds and you're in no trouble whatsoever. Take his chips later.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incredibly, and I mean incredibly, bad.

[curtains]

If he's an idiot and moving in with everything, call him for sure.

[elonkra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold. I don't think you wanna go up against 33 here and risk your tourney on a coinflip when its still very early with very small blinds and you're in no trouble whatsoever. Take his chips later.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incredibly, and I mean incredibly, bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

No argument here. I'm (obviously) still learning. Curious, would you call him if you knew he had 33? Would you call him if you had no read on him?

[raptor517]

well, no, i wouldnt call him if i knew he had 33. any 2, yes, i would call. holla

[spentrent]

Go with your read and call. No point in making a read and then not listening to it.

I learn about myself by going with my reads. Most of them are okay, some of them are terrible, but I can't improve if I don't allow myself to fail from time to time.

EDIT: Oh yeah, making the correct read but not playing accordingly is failing.

[gh9801]

My thoughts were that I didn't want to gamble at this point, and two live cards or a hand like 55 would make me unhappy. But at the same time I can't just "wait" to take his money, because it is going away fast. If I know he has two live for sure, do I call?

[gh9801]

I had a read and most likely am ahead at the moment, but is it worth it to call and possibly get outdrawn?

If he showed me his two live cards I would be iffy on the call for most of my stack, when I don't want to take this kind of risk so early. If he showed me 33, I would throw my hand away for sure.

By the way, he wasn't moving allin every hand. This is the second time he did it. Most of the time he was limping preflop and calling a raise, then outdrawing on the turn.

[SlapJack]

Let me get this straight, if you knew he had two cards lower than AK you would consider folding?

[gh9801]

I don't know if this is the right idea or not, but yes, simply because it is early on and I don't need to gamble when I can just sit around like I usually do and play poker later.

[SlapJack]

I think if you knew he had two lower cards you have to call. You are a about a 5 to 3 fav and will most likely double up.

[gh9801]

Maybe I should call mathematically, but I don't like it.

[Benoit]

You didn't say how much you had, obviously a much easier call if you can cover him and then some. Easy call, would you rather try to win $650 from the fish or from the rock at the table?

Edit* I didn't know he was not normally going all-in preflop... In that case he is short stacked with only about 6xBB, he may have Ax and want to raise but going all in is a better choice. If I felt this was a good read I'd probably call, otherwise I would fold... At such low blinds, the pot odds aren't attractive enough.

[gh9801]

So what's the general consensus?

[czyivn]

You likely have the advantage. Do this play and call his all-in 10,000 times, and you will come out ahead considerably more often than not. But in this case, I say it isn't worth it. In a MTT where stack size matters more, I say go for it, but if you are a consistent in-the-money SNG player, I say muck it and let him have his measly 45 chips. I'm no expert, but I know that pretty much anyone can fold every hand and finish in the top 5 or so of a SNG. Let someone else gamble with this maniac.

[J-Lo]

If you are a winning, good ITM player, you would want to call this, no? The xtra chips help you considerably, because you know how to wield them. That's what makes you a good player.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
Let someone else gamble with this maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me gamble with this maniac, please.

[gh9801]

I reluctantly called, Tilter had Q5 (but it was soooooted), AKo somehow wins. Thanks PP.

[mosch]

[ QUOTE ]
I reluctantly called

[/ QUOTE ]

RELUCTANTLY??!!

Do you dislike money?

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Let someone else gamble with this maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can we agree that the maniac is pushing a random hand?

If so, it's my (possibly naive) opinion that even the greatest SNG player in the universe should push a 65% edge.

[SlapJack]

you need to stop thinking that things aren't going to go your way and you will be outdrawn. You need to play the %'s and if you are a good player you will win in the long run.

[elonkra]

Ok, what facts do we have about the initial pusher?

He's loose preflop.
He chases too much.
Obviously, he's a bad player.

But what facts do we not have about the initial raiser?

How many times he's pushed preflop, if any.
How many times he's bet big preflop, if any.
In other words, whether the "loose preflop" characterization means (1) he's limping and calling small bets a lot; or (2) alternatively, he's aggressively raising a lot preflop.

In the second case, I'd undoubtedly call. But I'm not so sure that, w/AK, I'm calling off all my chips early in a tourney against a guy just limps and chases a lot when he goes all-in for the first time preflop. I also think it's interesting that it's widely considered a "good move" to limp w/AK early in a tourney yet it's apparently a great move to risk all of your chips with AK against a guy who very well might not have been agressive at all up to this point in time.

Just playing the devil's advocate here, but I think there's a really good chance this guy has a pair if he hasn't pushed or bet big yet.

[Slim Pickens]

I see absolutely no reason you shouldn't call. IMHO there is rarely a time to fold AK to an early push. The only hands you absolutely don't want to see are AA and KK. Now how often do bad low buy-in players push these pre-flop? My impression is never. You are a 45/55 dog against one class of hands, mid-to-low pocket pairs, that might make this play. You totally crush another large class, Ax. I don't know about you but there's no way I'm good enough to turn this down.

Slim

[elonkra]

[ QUOTE ]
I see absolutely no reason you shouldn't call. IMHO there is rarely a time to fold AK to an early push. The only hands you absolutely don't want to see are AA and KK. Now how often do bad low buy-in players push these pre-flop? My impression is never. You are a 45/55 dog against one class of hands, mid-to-low pocket pairs, that might make this play. You totally crush another large class, Ax. I don't know about you but there's no way I'm good enough to turn this down.

Slim

[/ QUOTE ]

Couple of questions... Not arguing with you, just trying to flesh this out a little and figure out how badly I'm misplaying my preflop big slicks:

Question: Do you invariably reraise normal-sized preflop raises in ten-handed games when you're holding AK?

Question: When you make a normal-sized preflop raise w/AK preflop and someone behind you pushes, do you invariably call off all of your chips?

[gh9801]

First, I mentioned in one of my responses that this was only the second time he moved allin preflop. The first time wasn't shown down but I was pretty sure the allin wasn't with a strong hand. For the most part, he was limping into pots.

It's not like I'm completely weak tight with AK preflop in sngs. In fact I like AK. I reraise a reasonable raise with it preflop almost all the time. I just don't like AK for 6/7th of my stack on the second level when I have nothing committed. Of course in later levels, I'm never even thinking about throwing it away. But in this situation, I felt that I might not need to push my decent but probably not overwhelming preflop advantage. My main question was whether it was worth it to gamble this early in the sng. I was just not happy with seeing his two live. The general consensus seemed to be to call based on who i was up against, that it was fine to gamble this early, and I agree. Just at the time I was iffy about it.

Now, if the person seemed competent but went mysteriously allin to win the 45 chip blinds, would you still make this call with AK? Probably not, right?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not like I'm completely weak tight with AK preflop in sngs. In fact I like AK. I reraise a reasonable raise with it preflop almost all the time. I just don't like AK for 6/7th of my stack on the second level when I have nothing committed. Of course in later levels, I'm never even thinking about throwing it away. But in this situation, I felt that I might not need to push my decent but probably not overwhelming preflop advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're either up 2:1, 3:1, or a coinflip. Most likely, it's 1 or 2. The approximate average is 5:3.

You will very very rarely, and I mean very, find a better spot on average to double up with than as a 5:3 favorite.

Having 'nothing committed' is a very common beginner's fallacy. It doesn't matter what you have in the pot or don't have; it matters if you can find a better edge later. You can't, so call.

[elonkra]

[ QUOTE ]

Having 'nothing committed' is a very common beginner's fallacy. It doesn't matter what you have in the pot or don't have; it matters if you can find a better edge later. You can't, so call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another question: I've read very little, but one of the books I've read, by McEvoy and Daugherty, suggests folding AK preflop early in a tourney when there is a normal-sized raise and a call into you, specifically because you have nothing invested and there is no need to get involved. Maybe I'm mistaken, and the example involved a situation where you have a raise and a reraise into you. I don't have the book with me, so I'm not 100% certain. Whatever the case, I know reference was made to the justification for folding being the fact that you have nothing invested. Just bad wording by the author?

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Having 'nothing committed' is a very common beginner's fallacy. It doesn't matter what you have in the pot or don't have; it matters if you can find a better edge later. You can't, so call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to write this down so I don't forget it. Thanks!

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
I've read very little, but one of the books I've read, by McEvoy and Daugherty, suggests folding AK preflop early in a tourney when there is a normal-sized raise and a call into you, specifically because you have nothing invested and there is no need to get involved.

[/ QUOTE ]
I haven't read this book so I'm not commenting on its quality, but...

1) This example seems to involve a multiway pot... big difference.

2) I have a book by Ken Warren where he says he'd rather be dealt AK than AA, so you can't believe everything you read. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Slim

[gh9801]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not like I'm completely weak tight with AK preflop in sngs. In fact I like AK. I reraise a reasonable raise with it preflop almost all the time. I just don't like AK for 6/7th of my stack on the second level when I have nothing committed. Of course in later levels, I'm never even thinking about throwing it away. But in this situation, I felt that I might not need to push my decent but probably not overwhelming preflop advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're either up 2:1, 3:1, or a coinflip. Most likely, it's 1 or 2. The approximate average is 5:3.

You will very very rarely, and I mean very, find a better spot on average to double up with than as a 5:3 favorite.

Having 'nothing committed' is a very common beginner's fallacy. It doesn't matter what you have in the pot or don't have; it matters if you can find a better edge later. You can't, so call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can find better edges later by winning pots without showdowns. A 5:3 edge is decently big, but definitely not invincible, and when I can pick up 2-3 pots with much less risk later on, this call doesn't seem as attractive. Of course I called, but there was good reasoning to lay it down.

Having nothing committed means a lot actually. Mathematically, if you have some chips committed you are more likely tied to call. If you have no chips committed, you can just throw your hand away like it is 27o. I don't know what you're talking about. It's like having AJ, and half your chips committed to the pot when someone competent reraises you versus a competent player putting you allin when you wake up with AJ in the BB. Much more committed to call in the first situation than the second....

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Question: Do you invariably reraise normal-sized preflop raises in ten-handed games when you're holding AK?

[/ QUOTE ]
I only do this if I have enough of a read on the raiser to tell me he could make that raise with something other than AA or KK. Of course you still have to include AA and KK in the range of hands he might have, but as long as I think this range includes some lower pockets and worse aces, I'll push. I'd like to be good enough post-flop to have a middle ground where I could call, but the thing I don't like about calling is if you hit you flop you can't extract any chips out of an underpair, but if you miss it, it's still hard to get away from the hand if you think your opponent might be playing a worse ace.


[ QUOTE ]
Question: When you make a normal-sized preflop raise w/AK preflop and someone behind you pushes, do you invariably call off all of your chips?

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, nothing's for sure, but I'm not calling without a solid read that the player pushing might do so with total crap. This case differs from the first in that I have no folding equity, so I'm pretty reluctant to call.

Argue away. Most of the time my advice sucks.

Slim

[elonkra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Question: Do you invariably reraise normal-sized preflop raises in ten-handed games when you're holding AK?

[/ QUOTE ]
I only do this if I have enough of a read on the raiser to tell me he could make that raise with something other than AA or KK. Of course you still have to include AA and KK in the range of hands he might have, but as long as I think this range includes some lower pockets and worse aces, I'll push. I'd like to be good enough post-flop to have a middle ground where I could call, but the thing I don't like about calling is if you hit you flop you can't extract any chips out of an underpair, but if you miss it, it's still hard to get away from the hand if you think your opponent might be playing a worse ace.


[/ QUOTE ]

Am I reading you right here? If you have one early-middle position raiser into you in late position, and you know this raiser might very well be raising w/something other than AA or KK, you're pushing with your AK, regardless of the level/blinds/raise size? If I am reading you right, how might the number of yet-to-act players behind you affect your decision, if at all?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Having nothing committed means a lot actually. Mathematically, if you have some chips committed you are more likely tied to call. If you have no chips committed, you can just throw your hand away like it is 27o. I don't know what you're talking about. It's like having AJ, and half your chips committed to the pot when someone competent reraises you versus a competent player putting you allin when you wake up with AJ in the BB. Much more committed to call in the first situation than the second....

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Having 'nothing committed' is a very common beginner's fallacy. It doesn't matter what you have in the pot or don't have; it matters if you can find a better edge later. You can't, so call.

[/ QUOTE ]

i switched the order, but it seems to work very nicely this way.

you're both making different points, but one of you is making an incorrect one, or at least one not related to the original question.

"having committed chips to the pot"

has nothing to do with later actions in the hand. once you put chips in the pot, they are not yours. they are in the pot, which means the pot is larger, which means that you are more likely to be pot odds committed to calling a future bet. there is, however, no magic tether attaching the chips that were once yours with the chips that are still yours when you put chips into the pot. in the original hand in this thread, the blinds are small. even if the hero had opened the hand first in with a speculative small raise, and then been reraised, the number of chips that would have been in there would be pretty irrelevant to the later decision making process.

with respect to your analysis of when you should toss AJ v a competant player... you're entirely wrong, basically. Yes, it's possible you may be pot committed to call a reraise after you had opened, but then, you probably should have pushed. Hell, you may have a decision to make calling a reraise that taps you anyway post flop, but that is not the big problem in your post. the big problem is the "if a competant player taps you while you're in the bb. a competant player will steal blinds with air constantly. especially in sngs. especailly at the point where a standard raise would be enough to tap the bb. blech.

"beyond having put chips already in the pot, other fallacies"

there's a classic misconception with respect to sngs that many fall victim to. eh, there's many, clearly, but there's one in particular that came up in this thread earlier. it's been discussed many times before, but i'm not going to find a good example, or go into great detail right now. perhaps someone else wants to go find it, or something.

people get very hung up on the idea of "you can give up small advantages, you don't want to risk busting early." this is crap. if you know that your opponent has two random cards and you have AK or TT or something like that, you call for all your chips if you're pretty certain there's not going to be anyone else in the hand. i think someone posted questions of the following sort previously

assume that you are on the first hand of a sng, and in the bb. it is folded to the sb, who pushes

a) you know they will push here with any two cards. what do you call with?
b) you see they have a non pair hand that is a dog to any pocket pair. do you call them with any pocket pair?
c) other switches on this problem

from what i recall of the ICM numbers, you just can't give up edges, even as small as like 5 and 6% edges. this is because getting double the chips is worth quite a bit. a linked question of course was the "if you were playing a sng with buyin X, how much would you pay to buy in to the same tournament, with one player removed, and you start with all his chips?" the link between these two questions and their answers are trivial.

anyway. yes, you will have opportunities later to pick up chips without having to see a flop, granted. but only if you don't bust before then. also, your opportunities to pick up chips without flops later is clearly greatly enhanced by your superior big stack play.

alright, this got long, and at this time of night today, there's a chance large chunks of it are incorrect. i sure hope said chunks are not too large.

citanul

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]

Another question: I've read very little, but one of the books I've read, by McEvoy and Daugherty, suggests folding AK preflop early in a tourney when there is a normal-sized raise and a call into you, specifically because you have nothing invested and there is no need to get involved. Maybe I'm mistaken, and the example involved a situation where you have a raise and a reraise into you. I don't have the book with me, so I'm not 100% certain. Whatever the case, I know reference was made to the justification for folding being the fact that you have nothing invested. Just bad wording by the author?

[/ QUOTE ]

McEvoy/Daugherty talks about TWO aggressive plays happening before you get a chance to act. 1) You're no longer playing one random hand and 2) neither is all-in.

In the OP's case it seems likely that his AK is up against a random hand. AK's pre-flop edge over one random hand all-in is too strong to pass up.

Bottom line: AK is a drawing hand with a 29% chance of pairing up on the flop. So if you want to take down the pot post-flop, most of the time it will involve either a long-shot semi-bluff OR a longer-shot semi-bluff, hence McEvoy/Daugherty's pre-flop fold recommendation.

[elonkra]

thanks for the clarification trent

[citanul]

Wowee, we have to make some distinctions at some point in this thread. I will offer what these distinctions should be, and then go to sleep. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

1) There are massive differences between how to play AK preflop at the different buying levels. When giving/receiving advice on how to proceed, it's INCREDIBLY important to know which levels we're talking about, especially in our hypothetical scenarios

2) Break it down into scenarios if you want to get into huge full on debate about how to play AK or AKs preflop with small blinds.

a) First in EP ai) you raise and are reraised aii) you raise and are pushed back at aiii) you raise, there are one or two callers, and a reraise aiv) you raise and there is a reraise, and callers av) you raise and there is a reraise, a push, and a call axxx) other crap like this

b) First in MP - break it down

c) First in LP - break it down

just naively saying "it's terrible to push over a preflop raiser with AKs" is really quite bad. if you know that the guy will call off his stack with QJs, go nuts. if you have AKs and believe that if you push you'll be called by 3 nonsense hands and one small pair, push away! (i think.)

anyway, this is a bit just pedagogical. or something. the point is saying that a play is inherently wrong without considering all the factors, like, say, how stupid the opponents are, is not good. if we're going to discuss, discuss in depth! from every post, there's nuggets of pure greatness to be found.

well, maybe not some posts.

citanul

[spentrent]

Please stay awake a little longer ;-)

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the clarification trent

[/ QUOTE ]

Call me Owen. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
1) There are massive differences between how to play AK preflop at the different buying levels. When giving/receiving advice on how to proceed, it's INCREDIBLY important to know which levels we're talking about, especially in our hypothetical scenarios

[/ QUOTE ]
I am talking about a Party 10+1, which I assume is similar to the 20+2 from the OP where people will raise and call off their stacks with hands like AQs, KQs, AJs, even Ax and worse.


[ QUOTE ]
2) Break it down into scenarios if you want to get into huge full on debate about how to play AK or AKs preflop with small blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am totally unqualified to do this, and should probably avoid hijacking the OP.

Slim

[Slim Pickens]

On the subject of:
[ QUOTE ]
Question: Do you invariably reraise normal-sized preflop raises in ten-handed games when you're holding AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am assuming the raise I'm facing is "decent-sized," say 3-4BB. A minraise I'll reraise, but not all-in yet. My general guideline is that my reraise better be to at least 3x the raise, and if that's more than about 35-40% of my stack, it's all going in.

Yeah, I'm afraid you're reading me correctly. I will in fact usually push AK over a preflop decent-sized raise with only one caller behind me. Correct my numbers if I did them wrong, but the OP has less than a 1 in 200 chance of being up against AA or KK in any one opponent given he has one ace and one king. In a ten handed game that means less than 20:1 that someone else has AA or KK when he has AK. I can't call from late position: I suck too much at postflop play. My reasoning behind the push is this. With a normal-sized raise already in the pot, I'm perfectly happy taking it down there if that raise is coming from a pocket pair QQ or lower. I am less happy to take it down from two live undercards or a worse ace. I'd rather they call, but them folding is still not bad. Yes, occasionally I'll run into AA or KK, which both = TS.

With more players behind, say if I'm UTG+2, a call is getting more and more likely. This sucks for me though, as I likely end up having to fold if I miss the flop and others have stayed in behind me.

Ug... getting long and confusing...

Slim

[lastchance]

If a preflop raiser raises into me at low-limits, I can't put him on AQ+, TT+, and if he can raise with AJo or worse, and most fish do, if I can comfortably push which means make a raise not more than 8x or 9x the initial raise (more with callers), than I will. AK loves to be all-in preflop, going against Queens isn't horrible, and you love AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, and a lot of players will show you those if you are pushing. Plus, missing AK sucks. AK is a hand that wants to be all-in preflop, so go do that with AK.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not like I'm completely weak tight with AK preflop in sngs. In fact I like AK. I reraise a reasonable raise with it preflop almost all the time. I just don't like AK for 6/7th of my stack on the second level when I have nothing committed. Of course in later levels, I'm never even thinking about throwing it away. But in this situation, I felt that I might not need to push my decent but probably not overwhelming preflop advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're either up 2:1, 3:1, or a coinflip. Most likely, it's 1 or 2. The approximate average is 5:3.

You will very very rarely, and I mean very, find a better spot on average to double up with than as a 5:3 favorite.

Having 'nothing committed' is a very common beginner's fallacy. It doesn't matter what you have in the pot or don't have; it matters if you can find a better edge later. You can't, so call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this situation came up in every single tournament you played, and you called every time, what's the max ITM% you think you could maintain?

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're either up 2:1, 3:1, or a coinflip. Most likely, it's 1 or 2. The approximate average is 5:3.

You will very very rarely, and I mean very, find a better spot on average to double up with than as a 5:3 favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this situation came up in every single tournament you played, and you called every time, what's the max ITM% you think you could maintain?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I'll bite. I think I could do between 40 and 41% ITM by taking this advantage at every opportunity.

Slim

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're either up 2:1, 3:1, or a coinflip. Most likely, it's 1 or 2. The approximate average is 5:3.

You will very very rarely, and I mean very, find a better spot on average to double up with than as a 5:3 favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this situation came up in every single tournament you played, and you called every time, what's the max ITM% you think you could maintain?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I'll bite. I think I could do between 40 and 41% ITM by taking this advantage at every opportunity.

Slim

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't really a trick question, I was just wondering. If you figure you're a 3:2 favorite in this hand on average, you've gotta make the money about 65% of the time after you double through to ~1400 to get 40% ITM. Seems kinda high, I dunno. Maybe it's not.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]

If he's an idiot and moving in with everything, call him for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree. if you have a read on him and think your AK is better than a coin flip, then call.