When's the limit to hold on to your low pp?

[Dave D]

Just had this hand happen. Obviously I'm hitting things wishing I called, but what's done is done. I think I was right to fold because although I'd just been moved to this table maybe 10 hands ago at most, it had been pretty aggressive, and I was worried one of the bigger stacks would go all in after I called and then I'd have to dump my 4s. 140ish left at this point w/ 220 making money in the party 20+2 started at 17:45. Should I have not even called at all in the first place?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1000 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t5350)
BB (t37010)
UTG (t28381)
UTG+1 (t6104)
Hero (t15270)
MP1 (t22373)
MP2 (t9460)
MP3 (t1144)
CO (t16660)
Button (t13436)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t2000</font>, Hero calls t2000, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t3000</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t6100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t6104 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds, CO calls t3104, BB calls t4.

Flop: (t20812) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t3000</font>, BB calls t3000.

Turn: (t26812) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t7556 (All-In)</font>, BB calls t7556.

River: (t41924) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t41924

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Jc Jh (two pair, jacks and fours).
UTG+1 has 3s As (two pair, aces and fours).
CO has Ah Kd (two pair, aces and fours).
Outcome: CO wins t41924. </font>

[Potowame]

fold to the first raise, your hand is weak and there is to great of a chance of the action that took place.

[curtains]

Your call with 44 is wayyy too loose. This combined with the other hand shows me that you play way too loosely and passively. The worst possible combination in poker. Work hard to fix this if you want to improve your game.

[Dave D]

The other hand was very specific to that table where looseness was working in the way I described. So are you saying fold the pp even if there was no raise? Or just because of the minraise? I ralized after that I probably shouldn't have even called in the first place... But even after I had, I was correct to fold to the reraise right?

[LethalRose]

I quickly fold PF, you're being results oriented, you'll go broke paying 2k to see a flop hoping to hit a set, and your not guaranteed to get paid off, either.

[curtains]

I would fold if there were no raise, but once there is a raise I think it's very clear.

[LethalRose]

the only time i call this is when im in the BB, SB. on the button id probably raise depending on the blinds.

[Dave D]

Thanks guys. I think this is probably one of my weak points late game in the multis (which I just started doing), making the transition from bascially auto calling pps to folding them under certain conditions.

Btw placed 65 w/ $100. Reraised a raise from utg for 7k more (17k total) from the bb (folded to me) w/ 4000/2000 blinds with AT. It was dumb, but oh well. He had AKs. Getting fairly low stacked and I'd folded to every steal before, thought I'd catch someone.

[curtains]

It's okay, keep posting advice on 2+2 and listen to what the top multi players tell you (If you don't know whom to listen to post a thread asking, as some people don't give the best advice.)

If you do this with the right attitude and an open mind you should be able to improve your game a ton.

[Tim H]

I take Doyle's stance on PP's if the raise represents around 10-15% of my stack and other people/raiser has a nice stack to pay off with I will play them.

No set on flop = fold

In this hand, I'd be down exactly what you were: call the first raise and fold back around preflop

[Potowame]

[ QUOTE ]


I take Doyle's stance on PP's if the raise represents around 10-15% of my stack and other people/raiser has a nice stack to pay off with I will play them.

No set on flop = fold

In this hand, I'd be down exactly what you were: call the first raise and fold back around preflop



[/ QUOTE ]

First Doyle's advice is for cash games, where you can reach in your pocket and reload.

Second if you think there is going to be a reraise that you will have to fold to, even a slight chance say 25% of the time. This makes the call even worse.

Action:

You call

25% of the time you fold preflop to reraise

75% of the time you see the flop you are folding roughly 88% of the time.

and 11.76% of the time you are hitting your set, and being paid off about 75-80% of the time.

still look like a winner? you add in that in the next two hands you are going into the blinds to subtract another 1500 from your stack to take you down to 11bb, this is just a flat bad call.

[number5858]

The gap concept and sandwich concept apply here. To call a raise, you must have a better hand then you would open with. There was already a raiser in front of you. You need to toss your pocket 4s right there unless you are really short stacked or short handed. You have to strongly consider the fact that there would be many to act after you. If they raise, you just waisted your call because you will be sandwiched.

[Mike Gallo]

Do not be so results oriented. You made the correct fold.

[familyteeth]

Harrington talks about this situation.
You've no business in the hand, error one,
Then "correct the situation" by throwing away the hand.
Harrington:"Don't fall into this trap, every subsequent decision has to be determined by your hand, the pot odds, and the total table situation"

I don't think this is an auto muck.
T19100 and T4100 to call, 4.7 to 1

Harrington's example is KJo from utg+1 and villain is in the blinds, hero has position in his example. pot odds of 5 to 1, and a slightly bigger dog than your situation to AA.

Here you don't have position, so although it's a bad spot for you, I don't consider this an auto fold

[Dave D]

Just so I'm clear, it's an auto fold for me for the first raise, but once I've called it, I should have called the next raise?

[familyteeth]

fold to first raise yes.
now that you're in the action,
second decision is a lot closer to call than fold,
you won't have position, but you're playing this hand for set value.
in Harrington's example KJo is looking to play with position.
Your stack to bb is almost exactly the same as in the Harrington example.
You do have life when the set doesn't come, but you'll have a monster stack when it does.

[Dave D]

You realize you're contradicting bascially everyone else who's commented on this right? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

The set/implied odds was exactly what I was thinking about with the original call. More specifically I keep thinking about this as a "gamble that wins tourneys", or at least helps me place higher. Obviously I would have no idea of the action that happened, but I knew that I'd be in great shape w/ a set. I'm trying to win the tourney, not just place etc etc mentality. Do you consider that at all?

[familyteeth]

I wouldn't have made the original call for set value with 44, in early position with lots of potential for action behind you.
Now that you are in the hand, I'm suggesting you rethink your situation when the action is back to you.
Harrington's book is where i was challenged to rethink my auto muck mentallity when i had made a mistake early in a hand