This hand just happened, critique?

[Dave D]

Hey guys,


This just happened in the 20+2 on party that started at 21:45. Still in it...

Wondering what you think of my play. The table had been pretty tight, generally folding to almost any raise I made, especially post flop, so I'd been stealing a fair amount, especially post flop. I had good reason to believe that player would fold to my 1000 chip bet on the turn, I'd been able to bet him out a couple times before without problems.

Bascially I realize I had pot odds to make the call, but should I have?

I'm considering:

1. We're just about on the bubble, maybe 15 or 20 off at that point (should make the call and get one closer to money).

2. I'm big stack. Maybe I shouldn't have even bet and just checked the turn and fold the river?


Again, I'd been bascially calling junk like that in LP b/c I knew I wouldn't get called after teh flop, that's the only reason I was in, in the first place.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t16255)
SB (t4965)
BB (t3685)
UTG (t10160)
UTG+1 (t3070)
UTG+2 (t1275)
MP1 (t4360)
MP2 (t3050)
MP3 (t4660)
CO (t3700)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, Hero calls t800, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (t2000) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t2000) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1000</font>, Hero calls t1885.

River: (t4885) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t4885

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has 9c 2h (full house, nines full of twos).
Hero has 8s 7d (one pair, nines).
Outcome: BB wins t4885. </font>

[CardSharpCook]

If you don't have the guts to raise preflop, fold. Now, on the turn there is 5000 in the pot and it is 2000 to you. You have 8 high with an OE st8 draw. You do not have pot odds here. You need slightly better than 4:1 IF the flush cards don't break you. Of course, if pairing the 7 or 8 is good... but whatever. Raise PF, fold on the turn. Also, checking behind on the turn is a fine play, but if you felt you had good FE and you were not attached to the draw, go ahead and make that bet.

CSC

[curtains]

1. I hate the preflop call. If you are on the bubble you should raise preflop, not just call. You can also fold of course.

2. I hate the flop check. You actually have a hand now, and the guy has just 2800 chips left. You should put him allin.

[woodguy]

If you never open limp on the button you would not be making a mistake.

Regards,
Woodguy

[LethalRose]

push the flop, part of playing big stack poker (as ive read here) is putting small stacks in with OESD's and flush draws.

[Dave D]

Yeah, I mean you're sorta missing my point. Bascially I had like 100% FE *post flop*. Raising preflop really wasn't an option. I'd called preflop and bet the flop and had it fold to me literally like 10x, and maybe 3 w/ the turn. I made that 1000 pretty much expecting a fold. I'm actually asking about calling his all in, more than anything else.

I was counting *my* flush draw as outs on the river and not my 8 and 7 pairing on the river. That may be pushing it, but whatever. Again, I was pretty much expecting a fold. Even so, if i knew his hand I still had pot odds.

[Dave D]

Yeah, I think I should have bet the flop, I think that was my biggest mistake here. I probably would have taken it down right there.

As far as the call preflop, and bet any flop, this was a very *table specific* thing. These people were just wierd this way, and what I was doing helped me work up from about 3k to 7500 fairly quickly.

[curtains]

Again I still hate calling preflop. I think you are just trying to be too fancy.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I think I should have bet the flop, I think that was my biggest mistake here. I probably would have taken it down right there.

As far as the call preflop, and bet any flop, this was a very *table specific* thing. These people were just wierd this way, and what I was doing helped me work up from about 3k to 7500 fairly quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're biggest mistake was the PF call. I don't know why you think that the laws of poker don't apply to this table, but players play their cards - they are folding post flop because they are not hitting. There is no magic here. Also, how it is that you can stumbled across this phenomenom is beyond me.... Do you make a habit of limping first in? If so, it is your biggest mistake. Sklansky says that PF mistakes are the most costly, on this hand it cost you a good sized potion of your chips.

CSC

[LethalRose]

you were totally set up by the BB here, his checking on the flop was meant to induce a bluff, and on the turn you fell for it. If i see someone at my table with the pattern you described i make the same play, you had a decent draw this time, but the concept is still the same.

Someone limps in LP, fires out a bet when the 2 blinds check, take the pot.

do this enough someone with half a brain will notice and make you pay.

A move I made earlier today was I noticed the opponent on my left was hyper aggressive with defending his blind, when someone in CO or CO+1 raised his blind he reraised all in, twice in a row at one point, he had an above average stack.. I "allowed" him to reraise me on purpose, couple orbits later I catch 99, 2.5xBB raise him, he pushed, i call, he shows K7s and I bust him.

You have to change gears and not fall into betting patterns, you're play was not that bad as you werent risking that much of your stack, but continue playing like this 2-3 times and you're back to a medium/below average stack.

also going to showdown with him lets people see you probably had nothing with all the other hands you played before, they will make a move on you with as alittle as mid pair if they dont believe you...

next time just raise PF and take down the blinds.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I mean you're sorta missing my point. Bascially I had like 100% FE *post flop*. Raising preflop really wasn't an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, why not? What could you possibly gain by calling pre-flop with that hand?

[Dave D]

Raising means I get the blinds because everyone will probably all fold to me. Calling then raising means I get the blinds plus the SB's call and maybe one other caller's call. Twice as much...

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising means I get the blinds because everyone will probably all fold to me. Calling then raising means I get the blinds plus the SB's call and maybe one other caller's call. Twice as much...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just so wrong. You don't want to see the flop 4-handed. You don't want the blinds to see the flop for free or for cheap. Ever. The chance that they flop a two-pair that is completely invisible to you is just too great. Your post is a perfect example of that. And again, there is nothing special about this table that they are all folding to your flop bets - you've just been extremely lucky up until this hand. Don't let that luck effect your style of play. On another note, CHANGE YOUR STYLE OF PLAY!!!!

You haven't stumbled on some secret that poker pros just don't know about. You've stumbled on chance. Also, your post really is the perfect example of why this is a bad play. All those "steals" you made have now been given to the BB who had 92o. Learn from this lesson.

WAKE UP!!!!

CSC

[Bataglin]

Horrible preflop call. Fold or raise.