View Full Version : When Ed Miller met Peter_Rus
Basically following what I've been told by these two notable blah blah blah you know the rest.
Standard? Or lucky?
Paradise Poker 8/16 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $8.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.
Flop: (10 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP1 folds, CO folds, SB folds, Hero calls.
Turn: (7 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.
River: (9 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds.
Final Pot: 10 BB
bernie
03-11-2005, 06:47 PM
You're betting into a likely raise very close to your left. There's more action to be tried for from your left. I'd have checked the flop, seen how many players are coming along. Let some others in.
b
gaming_mouse
03-11-2005, 06:48 PM
UTG knows how to make a good laydown.
I think this is standard. I will sometimes not bet out on the flop here, if I feel there is a chance of raise to my left (what happened to you), and if I am fairly sure someone else will bet anyway. It sucks getting the field blown away.
gm
dblgutshot
03-11-2005, 06:52 PM
My thoughts.
No reason at all to bet this flop. The most likely bettor will be MP1 so if you can get SB and the poster to come along then you can raise for value. Also if MP1 bets and its folded to you, a checkraise will increase your chance of taking the pot if nobody has a Q and MP1 has an unimproved AK or AJ or something.
If you get 3-bet then it's still for value if enough people come along, but on a board like that it's probably unlikely to get a bunch of callers. Play cautiously if the A or K or hearts comes up!
Yeah I guess UTG had a big pair or read me well for the flush. With that scary flop there was no way I wanted it to get checked through though and wanted to either take it down right there or bet for value. Of course, no other flush hand (which would 99% beat mine) is going anywhere so I wasn't too disappointed to see the hands fold away. You have to worry about boats too even if the flush hits.
bernie
03-11-2005, 07:24 PM
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With that scary flop there was no way I wanted it to get checked through
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The flop being checked through is far from being disastrous. This statement sounds like you're the one trying to protect something. Like what? What are you afraid of giving a free card to?
b
bernie
03-11-2005, 07:29 PM
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No reason at all to bet this flop. The most likely bettor will be MP1 so if you can get SB and the poster to come along then you can raise for value. Also if MP1 bets and its folded to you, a checkraise will increase your chance of taking the pot if nobody has a Q and MP1 has an unimproved AK or AJ or something.
If you get 3-bet then it's still for value if enough people come along, but on a board like that it's probably unlikely to get a bunch of callers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Given the board, I would fore-go c/raising for value on your draw. You will likely kill your action and there's a chance you will be 3 bet.
However, c/r'ing to maybe take it down with a turn bet unimproved representing a Q has some merit. However, most callers to the original bet, before you c/r are likely to have you beat and you'll have to catch to win. This would have to be a somewhat tight postflop table to try this, imo.
b
Etric
03-11-2005, 07:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Standard? Or lucky?
[/ QUOTE ]
Both.
bakku
03-11-2005, 08:16 PM
Check/call the flop, I think betting out is pretty bad.
bobbyi
03-11-2005, 08:18 PM
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With that scary flop there was no way I wanted it to get checked through though
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Dude, you have six high.
bernie
03-11-2005, 08:27 PM
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Dude, you have six high.
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He wants to get the better kickers out. /images/graemlins/cool.gif
No mucks last night?
b
Fortitude
03-11-2005, 09:15 PM
Doesn't anyone fold this preflop? An immediate 8:1 (effectively 9:1) is enough to call 62s?
Shillx
03-11-2005, 09:17 PM
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Check/call the flop, I think betting out is pretty bad.
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scrub
03-12-2005, 06:35 AM
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Doesn't anyone fold this preflop? An immediate 8:1 (effectively 9:1) is enough to call 62s?
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Not really, particularly as the stakes get lower and lower.
Peter Rus, who plays extremely well postflop, thinks he makes a little money calling with suited trash out of the blinds in these spots. The overwhelming majority of posters on this forum will be losers making this call.
scrub
scrub
03-12-2005, 06:43 AM
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It sucks getting the field blown away.
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If UTG has AK and blows the field off, you should want to kiss him, especially if someone who gets blown off has something like J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
I don't think this is a situation where UTG raises you with an unpaired hand and blows off the field often enough that betting out is better, but there are situations where you would love to blow off the field and get HU with UTG.
scrub
bernie
03-12-2005, 07:30 AM
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The overwhelming majority of posters on this forum will be losers making this call.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is this hand really that hard to play postflop?
b
bernie
03-12-2005, 07:32 AM
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especially if someone who gets blown off has something like J /images/graemlins/heart.gif
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I don't think him having the /images/graemlins/heart.gif is why you'd thank him.
b
zephed56
03-12-2005, 09:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With that scary flop there was no way I wanted it to get checked through
[/ QUOTE ]
The flop being checked through is far from being disastrous. This statement sounds like you're the one trying to protect something. Like what? What are you afraid of giving a free card to?
b
[/ QUOTE ]
I made a post in the general forum recently about this topic, and I got 1 reply.
Flush draw Hypothesis (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=1897470&Foru m=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=1 897470&Search=true&where=&Name=18501&daterange=&ne werval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=# Post1897470)
Question: Is it, or is it not +EV to receive a free turn card with a flush draw?
I know it depends on the number of flop callers when there is a bet, but let's assume on average we will get 2.5 callers if we instead decide to bet.
Note that:
-by betting we gain some fold equity later in the hand.
-Even if we always check we may have the option of pumping our draw if someone bets behind us. We have good position to do this also.
-By betting we may inadvertently knock the whole field out.
-When we checkraise the field we also gain fold equity later in the hand.
masonx
03-12-2005, 11:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You're betting into a likely raise very close to your left. There's more action to be tried for from your left. I'd have checked the flop, seen how many players are coming along. Let some others in.
b
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masonx
03-12-2005, 11:20 AM
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Is this hand really that hard to play postflop?
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I dont think so. Its generally simple to play postflop.
bernie
03-12-2005, 07:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Question: Is it, or is it not +EV to receive a free turn card with a flush draw?
[/ QUOTE ]
Bets on the flop for flush draw alone: With blinders on, if there are 3 opponents in, it is no worse than neutral. With 2 it's close to even money for the flush draw alone granted no one else has a flush card or a bigger flush draw.
A free card on a draw to win is never really -EV, is it? So the EV part is the semi bluff along with possible value of bets going in on that betting round for your draw. Say your against a bunch of glue fingers. The semibluff is gone, but the value may still be there to bet it. Note: We are talking about smaller flush draws here, usually with an overcard or 2 so it's likely we will have to catch to win.
Briefly: It then depends on the # of opponents in regard to your total odds to hit your hand counting all draws you have minus any outs that may not be available. Then the size of your flush draw/added draws for jamming it. The smaller the draw the less likely I'd jam it. This means 3+ betting/raising.
Another reason for betting is that it helps to disguise your hand a little on the flop among all the other hands you bet out with.
Many people overplay their basic draws. They tend not to take into account the opponents holdings nor the size of their draw. They just see the draw and go into jam mode. One sign of this is someone facing everyone behind them with 2 bets cold with a baby flush draw or small side of a 2 card str8 draw. There-by knocking out people you want in to pay you off/or gain value from for the bets going in on that round.
Just woke up so Im not sure I explained all that well.
b
scrub
03-13-2005, 05:51 AM
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The overwhelming majority of posters on this forum will be losers making this call.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is this hand really that hard to play postflop?
b
[/ QUOTE ]
It's hard to get maximum value out of.
scrub
bobbyi
03-13-2005, 06:36 AM
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With blinders on, if there are 3 opponents in, it is no worse than neutral. With 2 it's close to even money for the flush draw alone granted no one else has a flush card or a bigger flush draw.
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The sentence should end with "or a set".
Preflop most are agreeing with the call at 9:1 or thereabouts.
Flop is where we diverge; some say check-call, some say betting isn't bad, I have no real idea apart from I don't want it to get checked through. This isn't because I want to protect my hand, I have nothing, but I want to make the pot bigger for my putative flush.... and if I bet and raised the field may clear (which it did) ; another queen may make my flush hopeless, and who knows what other pairs might hit a set or single hearts hit runner runner. So I quite like the fact I'm headsup, my EV * pot value is probably increased.
Turn plays itself. River I can't let it get checked through to AA or AK or JJ who is worried about the flush or trips.
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