Stealing the blinds in NLHE

[DavidC]

In NLHE cash games, blind stealing is something that I'm really uncomfortable with (which would occur more often in a short handed game).

In NLHE a standard PFR is 4xBB (in a 1/2 blinds game, though, make it $10 just so you don't freak out the fish with $8 bets).

However, in LHE, you raise PF if you think that your hand is good maybe 50% of the time, depending on how much he'll reraise you and with what kinds of hands.

The problem with NLHE, is that:

1) If you make a standard pfr (4xbb) then he can afford to be much more patient when he makes his calls / raises.

2) If you make a minpfr (i.e. the same as a limit raise), then he can call with nearly anything in the BB when the stacks are deep, because he's got position and he's trying to hit a hand to double through you or at least do some serious damage.

So it becomes really tough...

Especially if you're trying to steal from the CO or something like that with KJ, and you know that people will flat call with a hand like AQ/AJ/77, whereas in limit they might reraise those hands to try to punish you for stealing.

The other thing is that if you start making your "stealing pfr" a minraise, then when you get AA on the button you have to minraise rather than standard raise!

Anyways, I've been rolling this around in my head for a while now and I don't have too much academic knowledge, so it'd be neat to hear some opinions on blind stealing.

This is a topic (along with hand selection) that was completely ignored in ciaffone's book.

Maybe it's in S/S and I just haven't read it in there yet.

Comments are appreciated.

[AZK]

Blind stealing in NL is sort of pointless unless you have a really short stack, 50xBB or less I'd say. If you are playing in a deep game with 150xBB+ why bother to steal 1.5xBB? Most raises from late position are more to build pots than flat out steal, the goal being to play bigger pots everytime you have a positional advantage. Natedogg talks about this in the archives, that post is well worth the read. Bottom line is basically that in NL you are trying to keep a healthy stack and don't mind slowly adding to it with mediocre hands, i.e. TPTK/2 pair etc, but ultimately you are looking for a hand to double through with, so there isn't really a point in risking a medium sized portion of your stack over one bet...make any sense?

This is assuming you are playing in a full ring game and everyone is pretty deep, it is obviously completely different in a shorthanded game or short stacked game.

[THWAP!]

I think that stealing blinds in NL cash games (especially deep stacked ones) is less about just stealing the blind. It's as much about the meta-game implications. So, even in deeper games, it's not pointless. Basically, you need to achieve the right frequency of blind steals so that when you do openraise from LP, people can't automatically peg you on a hand. Additionally, if you play well postflop, people need to know that if they mess with you, it will be potentially costly on later streets. If you get through this phase of achieving control, then play becomes easier.

So, if you get a hand that's worth stealing with, and you have an opponent that you have reasonably good control with, you do it.

As far as something more specific, I'd say this. Whatever you usually raise, raise that amount. If you like to mix up your raise amounts (a la Harrington), and you feel that your raise amounts aren't transparent, then feel free to alter the amount based on the local needs of your current situation. I just think that you need to add balance, especially in more aggressive games. Of course, playing well postflop is an obvious advantage that will assist you in your steals, but it helps that you have position. Hopefully, I made some sense here.

[Voltron87]

For the majority of cases, the risk/reward of blind stealing makes it not worth it.

[DavidC]

What it comes down to, when changing raising amounts, is that I believe that my standard open pfr should change with my position. 4xbb all the way to mp3, then 2xbb all the way to the SB. No matter what my cards are.

Once people enter into the pot, then my standard PFR is 4xbb, unless there's a lot of people, then it could be more, dependent on the size of the pot by the time it gets to me and what cards I hold.

So I wouldn't be changing my best sizes. I would just have two bet sizes that I used all the time, dependent on my position, not on my cards.

The the risk/reward ratio...

This is why you would adjust your pfr downwards when in late position.

Basically all the responses I've received thus far have been "you don't want to steal in NLHE with deep stacks."

My own opinion is that every dollar matters in poker.

You'd figure if it were so risky to steal, then it would be just as risky to defend.

--Dave.

[jayheaps]

stealind blinds in deep stack games is only important in that it will allow your big hands to get paid off because your opponents assume you are raising light.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically all the responses I've received thus far have been "you don't want to steal in NLHE with deep stacks."

My own opinion is that every dollar matters in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason, I really don't like this method of thinking, I agree, sure, every dollar does matter. But you are just setting yourself up for trouble if you are always stealing -- you need to have a playable hand.

From what I've observed, most solid players playing in a deep game, when they choose to openraise from late position or raise a few limpers are not raising to take down the blinds and steal a few antes, they are trying to build pots when they have a positional advantage. Everything being equal, if they are playing for a $100 pot when they have the button and a $5 pot when they are UTG they will win all the money in the end.

It doesn't sound like you've ever played in a really deep game. For example, greektown 2-5 NL, the game I primarily play, is populated by stacks in the $1000 - 5000 range. The blinds are $2, $5, a standard raise is $40 - 60. Why would one risk $60 or potentially more if one gets caught, to win $7. It makes no sense. One would have to successfully steal over 80% of the time (something absurd) for this to be profitable...am I making any sense?

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
stealind blinds in deep stack games is only important in that it will allow your big hands to get paid off because your opponents assume you are raising light.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I was saying though in induvidual cases it is not worth it to risk 25$ to steal 7$ worth of blinds for example.

[imperious]

It sounds like you're mixing tourney thinking with cash game thinking.

Blind stealing doesn't really happen at higher stakes and if it does to a small extent then ppl are doing it on roughly the same frequency anyway so this isn't where you make your money. LP raises are much more likely to be a semi-bluff blind steal than pure so if/when they get called at least they have some chance of flopping a decent hand.

If you watch rather than play 25/50NL then I suppose it looks like "wow if i had the roll, all I'd have to do is steal a couple of blinds an hour and I'll make money" but it obviously doesnt work like that.

I also think you'd be better off discussing this tactic, I don't know many other ppl that do this and this really isn't optimal play IMHO.

[ QUOTE ]
What it comes down to, when changing raising amounts, is that I believe that my standard open pfr should change with my position. 4xbb all the way to mp3, then 2xbb all the way to the SB. No matter what my cards are.



[/ QUOTE ]

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically all the responses I've received thus far have been "you don't want to steal in NLHE with deep stacks."

My own opinion is that every dollar matters in poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

But, as others have alluded, blind stealing is not profitable. You'll be subjected to re-steals, end up having to play trash hands post-flop, and other bad stuff that's just not worth the benefit of the blinds.

As far as you altering your pre-flop raise amounts in order to accomodate (and mask) your blind steal attempts, that's just silly. You have the cart leading the horse there.

Yes, every dollar matters. But every dollar is relative. So while the $15 in blinds might be "important", the decision you make for the $1500 pot is 100 times more important. Concentrate on those.

[DavidC]

I'm not suggesting making a standard 4xbb pfr to steal.

[DavidC]

I know that in a tourney you need to steal to win. However, that's now what I'm thinking about here. I'm talking about making a few extra bets / 100 hands as a result of carefully applied stealing of the blinds.

I'm talking about raising the BB in SB with T9o or 98o and stuff like that. I'm not talking about raising from the CO with 54o.

The problem is that stealing in NLHE is much more complex than stealing in LHE, for the reasons stated in my initial post.

I haven't the foggiest clue as to how to do it properly and with the most EV, and I wouldn't mind participating in a constructive discussion on how one should proceed to steal.

Stealing blinds / antes / forced-bring-ins is a fact of life in poker.

No one's trying to make a living by stealing blinds... I'm just talking about adding to your bb/100 as a result of stealing.

--Dave.

[DavidC]

So how about a discussion on how to maximize EV in those situations where you're "raising light" (stealing), then?

I mean, if you're going to do it for meta-gaming purposes, then you may as well make money while you're at it, right?

[Usagi_yo]

You're pre-flop steals are only as good as your steal continuations on the flop.

The game I play in, following through with the steal on the flop is quite lucrative.

[arkose]

I think an important factor to consider when determing your strategy for a session is how the table is playing.

If there are a lot of timid, weak, tight players at your table, then strict blind stealing becomes more important because you will be involved in less big pots. In NL, the big pots are what affect your bottom line more than anything; if you aren't able to play in many big pots, then the money made from blind steals will be a larger percentage of your earnings for the session. In this sense, the stack sizes are somewhat irrelevant (someone may have $5000 in front of them, but if they are playing very weak, tight, it doesn't really matter because you will be hard pressed to take it away from him).

On the other hand, if your table is looser and more aggressive, blind stealing becomes much less important because there are big pots occurring more frequently. In these situations, it makes less sense to try strict blind steals when you know the blinds are going to call you (or reraise) a large amount of the time. The live NL games at the RiverRock in Vancouver where I play are extremely loose and usually somewhat on the aggressive side. I play a lot of hands preflop but I do a lot of limping and calling of small raises because I know I can get paid off later if I hit a good hand. I am not thinking about how many times I can steal $9 in blinds (3-6), but rather, how many times I can take people's stacks.

The first two times I went to Vegas (both recently) I found that the NL games, compared to the Vancouver game, had a lot more weak, passive play. I therefore went into blind stealing mode a bit more often because it was more difficult to get people's money into big pots.

Overall though, I think you should stop looking at blind stealing as a way of making a few extra bucks every hour, and look at the bigger picture within which blind stealing plays a role. In NL, you are trying to double your stack in a few select hands that you'll play in your session. If you are raising from late position with the proper frequency as part of an overall strategy (based on how the table is playing and the stacks sizes, and your known opponents, etc), it will help you attack the entire stacks of the other players. If you were to never raise preflop without a very good hand, then people would notice and you'd never get any action. If you raise preflop everytime on your button or the CO, then people will notice that and start calling/reraising a lot because they don't respect your raises. So you want to find a happy medium based on the table and your own playing style that you are comfortable with. You want people to know that sometimes when you raise, its with garbage, and sometimes its with Aces. They also have to know that you are able to follow up a preflop raise with a continuation bet on the flop (and even a third barrel on the turn sometimes) whether you have something or not. Let people see that you are a tricky, strong player and you'll be able to control/manipulate the table to your liking (against typical opposition anyways). You will no longer view raising from late position as 'blind stealing', and instead see it as part of your strategy for gaining the upper hand against another opponent in a big hand.

As an aside, I really don't think min-raising from late position will be a good strategy in most situations. Unless the other players are clueless, they will adjust. They will start reraising with good hands and not so good hands if they think you are raising too often with inferior hands. Or if they think you are doing it with a lot of good hands, then they'll gladly call the cheap raise with a variety of garbage designed to crack whatever big pair you have. Unless you're a *really* good postflop player, I think you'll just get 'played' with too often. Instead of being the aggressor making the big bets and putting pressure on other people (which is what you want), you'll be forced to make tough decisions in the face of other people's big bets/raises.

[The_Bends]

[ QUOTE ]
You're pre-flop steals are only as good as your steal continuations on the flop.

The game I play in, following through with the steal on the flop is quite lucrative.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. Stealing is worth it if you have players who will call to keep you honest but fold to repeated shows of strenght.

[DavidC]

Makes sense, thanks man.